Choices for Metals/Materials analogous to Fantasy-Metals

[Katylar]

Hi Everyone!

 

Glad to be a part of this community. 

 

I'm currently writing a low-fantasy story right now which tries to explain some of the more fantastical archetypes in a more realistic sense (in as much as exaggerated reality can be pulled off).

 

One of the things I've encountered is that I'm trying to find a possible (REAL-LIFE) analog to some of the fantastic super-metals that high-fantasy stories tend to use for their weapons and armor. I can always write that the processes in making these high-tech materials were stumbled upon serendipitously or something.

 

I wanted to post this on a more relevant forum, but didn't want to offend anyone by asking about hypothetical/fantasy smithing-projects on boards where people talk about the actual work.

 

For example, let's say that Adamant/Adamantine is a metal (or ceramic). So far, my research has turned up that the consensus for this fantasy-material is that it's hard and durable. So it's always used for its defensive or structural properties. Ergo, armor.

 

So I've been looking around, and the best I could come up with is either a Titanium Alloy, or Tungsten Carbide (which isn't really a metal, but can be passed off as one). I'm leaning more towards the latter, since it has a better hardness and stiffness over-all... and isn't that what you're looking for in armor?

 

Or am I wrong? Is plasticity more important in making armor?

 

Let's assume that in my world, we have super-dedicated smiths who will be willing to spend months on a single project, so having a material that's hard to work with is not a dealbreaker (remember, these are supposed to be the unique, one-of-a-kind weapons and armor).

 

Ceramics, of course, are hard... but they're also very brittle. So they're not viable materials for mail and/or plate-armor. I'm not sure if  Tungsten Carbide is brittle, too.

 

I read at some forum that Tungsten (pure) is also a good candidate. And according to some sites on the net, the PURE metal is not brittle and has a good bit of malleability and ductility. I know it's tremendously heavy, but let's disregard that for now. However, I'm not entire convinced about how reliable those posts/articles were.

 

For weapons, I've been reading up a lot. It gets really confusing when it comes to what properties should be exhibited and balanced, since grammatically speaking, they're pretty much synonymous... Hardness, Strength, Toughness, Durability...etc.

 

But what I got from my research is that: Strength/Hardness is for keeping an edge and damage-capability, but leads to Brittleness. Toughness means impact-absorption, so I guess this is needed. When people say "soft" I actually don't know if they mean something is highly ductile and malleable (opposite of being able to keep an edge, but good for not shattering your weapon).

 

So as far as weapons go... can anyone leave a few tips for me as to what these scientific/technical terms actually mean in the practical sense? I can then just find a material which has a balance of these properties I'm comfortable, and stick with that.

 

Right now I'm leaning towards this new Palladium/Silver alloy, it's a metallic glass.

 

But right now, everyone keeps saying words like "Strong" and "tough" and "hard"... and I honestly get confused since most people don't seem to use the same definitions.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Thanks!

Katylar

[j.w.s.]

Uh, I fail to see how your fantasy world differs from ours in this aspect. :)

 

-J

 

Let's assume that in my world, we have super-dedicated smiths who will be willing to spend months on a single project, so having a material that's hard to work with is not a dealbreaker (remember, these are supposed to be the unique, one-of-a-kind weapons and armor).

[mcostello]

Having Unobtanium that slowly dissolves only taps and bullets would be nice.

[Frank Turley]

Didn't a new steel alloy with wondrous properties get developed in the fiction story, Atlas Shrugged, by Ayn Rand? As I recall, it was called Rearden Metal, had a greenish hue, and was a fiction. Then there is the ore, kryptonite, a fictionalized material from the Superman series.

 

Since you're writing fantasy, why not use fantasy materials?

[doc]

Frank,

      Your correct again! The Rearden metal as I recall was a steel alloyed with copper (hence the green hue) it was supposed to be hard, durable and corrosion resisitant. I always have wondered if Ayn Rand had known anything about Corten and had just embellished on it's metallurgical properties..  

[ThomasPowers]

Carbide is quite brittle; do you want armour that chips and cracks and fractures easily?

[Maillemaker]

Some terms are used interchangeably in common language that cannot be in metallurgy.

 

Hard: a material's resistance to wear and deformation.  Files are hard:  the teeth have to bite through other steels without dulling (being deformed) quickly.

 

Brittle: a material's inability to flex and absorb shock.  You can't bend a file cold, it will snap.  It's too hard, too brittle.

 

Tough: a material's ability to absorb shock and impact.  Axles are tough: they have to take lots of force without breaking.  However, a tough material will deform/bend more quickly than a harder one.

[Katylar]

Hi Everyone,

 

Thanks for the feedback.

 

Like I said before, one of the main features of the story is that it tries to link/justify each "fantasy" element to something that actually exists, though vastly exaggerated. As Arthur C. Clarke once posited, any advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. So my main though is this: what if everything that is considered "magical" is just something so technologically ahead of its time that it was thought as supernatural?

 

We do have some examples of hyper-advanced materials that are now only being studied already in use in some primitive fashion in the olden times, produced with techniques learned by serendipity. I read somewhere that Damascus Steel gets is superior quality because of the presence of carbon nanotubes?

 

Another one of the points of the storyworld is that design, skill and knowledge can trump these magical or "supermaterials" any day. However, in order for that point to really come across, I need to give examples of magic/superweapons MADE from a magic/supermaterial, and then compare it to one made from relatively mundane (but high quality) materials but with more ingenuity.

 

So I've kinda settled on what material can be used for weapons, but I'm still iffy about the metal/ceramic that I'll label as being "Adamant/Adamantine". Supposedly, this magical material is impervious to damage and offers great protection. No mention about being lightweight, so I'm ok with choosing a super-dense material and just saying that's one of the drawbacks of it (heaviness).

 

Now, for the armor (or shield) material. What type of properties would be the best? Would it be hardness (so it doesn't get penetrated or scratched)? Or plasticity (so it doesn't shatter or break apart on impact?) Or... once again a balance of the two? 

 

From what I'm seeing, HARD armors would be great against arrows and stabs. But more ELASTIC (ductile/malleable) would be tougher. Regardless, both would be ineffective against blunt-force trauma (as the hard armors would shatter, and the elastic armors would just transfer the impact to your body). This coincides with what I know (the development of plate armor quickly led to maces and flails, which were pretty much the game-breaker and whose only weakness was that the user had to have to physical strength to wield them effectively).

 

As for the word-definitions, they really cleared up a lot of things for me. But can I know if there's a specific definition for the word Strength as far as material science is concerned? Or is it an ambiguous, catch-all word?

 

So am I write in assuming that a HARD metal is the best option for Mail Armor and Full Plate? Or would the problem of brittleness be too severe?

 

Any thoughts?

 

Thanks!

[Justin Caradoc]

 The brittleness would be to severe for either of these uses. The mail would splinter under any hit from and weapon. The plate would get stress fractures from the same weapons. Also plate might transfer the impact from a blunt weapon to the wearrer but it spreads it out over the body. You might want to check out armourarchives for more specifics on how armor is made and the propertys of the best types of steel for it. There are a few SCA armours on this site but alot of these questions have been answered over there in one form or another.  

So am I write in assuming that a HARD metal is the best option for Mail Armor and Full Plate? Or would the problem of brittleness be too severe?

[Katylar]

Hi Justin,

 

Thanks for the direction. I've registered there and am now waiting for account activation. Looks like I'll have to wait a bit before I can post my question, but I'll be reading through the VAST old threads for now.

 

But just a quick tip: so if really Hard materials are bad for armor, then tough+elastic materials are the way to go? However, wouldn't they be too easily dented and/or deformed? For example, on mail... wouldn't an arrowhead or dagger just bend the links so the point gets through?

[Frank Turley]

Kaylar, You are ultimately asking for engineering definitions, such as yield point, tensile strength. Rockwell and Brinell hardness testing, etc. I don't know how applicable they would be to your search. In terms of hardness and toughness, I don't think that heat treatment has been mentioned. Simply stated, heat treatment is the controlled heating and cooling of a metal in order to change its properties. Early on, an axle was mentioned. An axle made of medium carbon steel, say 0.45% carbon content, can be hardened in water at a red heat to where it becomes close to brittle. By reheating to a controlled lower temperature, "toughness" and springback is imparted; this is tempering. The brittleness is removed. The hardening comes first because it is a point of reference from which to back away. For an axle, the idea would be to keep it from permanently bowing. A bowed axle would make for a rough ride.

[Katylar]

Thanks everyone!

 

So just to clarify and surmise:

 

Blades - Hard Edge and point, Tough body/spine (good yield strength, very high ultimate strength)

Axes/Hammers - Tough

Arrows - Hard (for penetrating power and sharpness). Brittleness less of an issue?

Mail - Tough (so it doesn't shatter or break). It's most to stop cuts and stabs, so dissipating energy is less of an issue.

Plate Armor - Tough (elastic more than plastic, if possible) and work-hardened in some areas (to avoid easy penetration)

 

Did I get it right?

[Frank Turley]

Carbon is the main hardenability agent in steel, even in this day of alloy steels. Assume you have a hardenable steel by quenching at a specific incandescent heat in brine, water, oil, or air. Afterward, you temper by reheating to a known lower temperature. Now, you have sacrificed a little hardness to gain toughness. You are in an in between stage, a comprimise if you will, but a good one.

 

If you heat-treat by annealing or normalizing, you get a "soft" metal at room temperature, not useful for tools and armour except when hardened and tempered.

 

"Temper" has several meanings, but it usually refers to moderation. For example, much of the U.S. is in the temperate zone, neither too hot nor too cold. "Temperate" is in between the extremes.

 

Goldilocks looking for the right bed. Mama's bed was too soft; daddy bear's too hard; and baby bear's bed was just right (tempered).

[ThomasPowers]

Note on bending mail links:  Draw a circle 1/4 inch in diameter; now "bend it"  can you stick an arrowhead through it?

 

You have to actually break the link to get penetration.  Riveted maille is about ten times harder to open a link than the same material, same size butted links.

 

Now on armour and weapons: too heavy is deadly (too slow and too tiring to carry) AS IS TOO LIGHT!  As example: take a 1" wooden child's block and place it on a flat surface and hit the side of it with a hammer.  Repeat the experiment with a full sized chunk of firewood.  Which would you like to be in?

 

I've seen welded Titanium maille that is as close to Mithral as I have seen!

[Frosty]

Katylar: Much of what you ask, your are asking in general terms but the answers are specifics and subjective. For instance, "hard". compared to what and to what end? Candy? Too hard to easily chew would be hard. taffy isn't "hard" but you still can't chew it, it's too tough.

 

Okay, enough of extreme examples. Armor, needs to resist puncture, cuts and impact damage by distributing forces and not denting deeply. A dent can be a momentary thing, rebounding in miliseconds but leavig bruises, broken bones, internal injuries, etc.

 

Cutting weapons need to have edge holding characteristics or (for this purpose) hardness. They must be tough enough to not shatter or break under impact or flexing forcces. This can be expressed as toughness but that's a very vague term, incidence of rebound, not much better, modulus of elasticity is better. combining both is a GOOd thing for impact resistance.

 

Do you need abrasion resistance? Is your character going to be going for long slides, say down a mountain side? If so, then yes or his/er armor is going to wear through.

 

these and many many more properties are an exploration into engineering and it's highly specialized language or jargon. Without the jargon you're just not going to get a good grasp of what the stuff means. I have a working  handle or working knowledge of most of this stuff, just enough I can look IT up if I need something special.

 

What about materials referring to your original questions. Metals, there are an untold number of metals and their alloys, Inventing one is pretty easy. Pick something with say two of the properties you need, say light weight and resistance to flexion and add something cool sounding to give it edge holding hardness, a rare earth for instance.

 

There's a pretty new type of iron that has really good promise for super strong products. Amorphous iron, it has NO crystaline structure, it is homogenous iron with no crystal boundries to impart failure initiation points. At first I thought it was something super pliable but reading more it seems it's tougher than the hubs of hades. Mono-crystaline castings also have NO crystal boundries and it's how we can make things like turbine engine blades with superior failure characteristics.

 

Ceramics are NOT all brittle. Zirconium oxide makes pretty nifty hammers if too light. It's also incredibly heat resistant, vitrifies somewhere around 4,000*c and is reasonably close to a black body IR reflector. I don't think it'd do in this sheets for armor though, not as a stand alone that is. Zircon is also just  wee bit less hard than diamond as well. Really cool stuff.

 

You mention carbon tubes in damascus. Why not? If there were I'm thinking there'd be solid evidence in the books.  But no, there are no papers siting evidence so it's speculation and IMHO not bad speculation. Why not carbon nano structures? I'm a sci fi guy with shelves of science books so I could get a working handle on subjects so I could write and include a plausible version. If I needed something specific I'd go to the library or the web. You want strong, hard and light? how about a nano structure of crystaline carbon interspersed with something cool sounding like titanium or better yet palladium or iridium or osmium. (Th platinum group sounds cool) Just invent a material but for good story telling it needs a vulnerability, kryptonite for superman, etc. without a vulnerability you have a literary loser like the "Green Lantern" is for comic. Dead issue.

 

Why not just make something up? Fiction, science or fantasy or any other kind of fiction only needs to be "realistic" not real. It has to be plausible enough to support a "suspension of disbelief" for the audience. The human mind has amongst many other amazing qualities, a quality absolutely necessary for art as we know it. That's the ability to fill in the blanks. (I can't recall the proper term) We see something that resembles a leaf and the minds eye fills in the little incongruities and we SEE a leaf. If we didn't do this blacksmiths wouldn't be making forged representations of leaves, we certainly can't really make leaves.

 

Anyway, if you give the reader/viewer/listener/etc. a good enough representation of a thing, their minds will fill in the blanks, gloss over the blemishes and they will comprehend the THING.

 

That's it, get close enough and you're there as a fiction author. I'm more into sci fi myself, even used to write. The secret is to "invent" rules and FOLLOW them. A lot of the things Ibrought up don't need or heck even WANT a blacksmith. So what? Invent a blacksmith who knows the secret to forging normal iron into a nano structure reinforced product. Impossible? Not in MY universe!

 

I think I've rambled long enough. I've been writing sci fi stories since jr. high and thinking about this stuff almost al my life so I can get carried away. It's a fun thread though.

 

Oh yeah, while never joining I was an armorer for SCA fighters. And a couple years ago given a society name, "Frostig Den Heldig."

 

Frosty the Lucky.