frustrated forge welder

[Momatt]

Hi I am new to this.  I made two littl efroes out of farriers rasp with a wrapped eye and weld using borax as flux.  They seemed to hold.  I wanted a stouter froe, so I ordered a 1/4 inch piece of 5160.  It was hot rasped it to make sure it was clean where the weld would go and scarfed.  Used the borax and heated till bright yellow white (no sparks) tried it numerous times till I thought I had at least a partial weld.  Trying to straighten it the entire piece separated.  I am using a chili brand gas forge its plenty hot based on what videos I have watched.  I really want to learn to forge weld as many of the tools I want to make have eyes or sockets.  Any tips appreciated.

[jmccustomknives]

Try letting it "soak" a little longer.  Watch for the borax to bubble.  Use no bigger than a 3lb hammer and don't hit it hard.  Work from the center of the weld to the outside with rapid light strikes.  Your not trying to move metal, that will just cause the weld to slip and not take.  When you've done it twice then use heavier strikes and move some metal to the disired shape. 

[Steve Sells]

we discussed this in the knife making classes.http://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/31068-knife-making-log-class-109-materials-and-forge-welding/

[joshua.M]

don't use too much flux.... it's flux, not glue

 

Josh

[Frank Turley]

Many froes were made of wrought iron and mild steel. Maintaining an extremely sharp cutting edge was not all that important, as you were hitting the billet end grain. The cross section of a well made froe is a full wedge shape. it is not straight sided with an included angle, the way many other tools are sharpened. Mild steel would forge weld easier than spring steel.

[Justin Carnecchia]

I haven't tried welding with 5160, but from what I hear it is much more difficult than simple steels. Not that it can't be done, I know people do, but atmosphere and temperature become much more important.

[evfreek]

I have also had difficulty with this kind of weld.  Somebody on the web said that spring steel, especially with the higher amounts of chromium, can be difficult to weld to itself.  Some people suggest  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX :)

 

Seriously, though, I salvaged an unfortunate situation by cutting a section from a food can (tin plated steel) into the shape of the weld, flattening and sanding it, then sliding it into the gap.  Then, proceed as usual.  Seemed to stick.  I recall reading of a technique called Lafitte plate which does a similar thing.  Note, except for the weld, none of these are first hand experience.  I don't even know a blacksmith who has tried Lafitte plate.  But it seems to make sense.

 

Mod note: dangerous advise deleted for safety

[brianbrazealblacksmith]

Try using Iron mountain flux. It was formulated for gas forges so it would not leach borax and not eat up your lining.

[joshua.M]

I have seen the iron mountain in use by Brian, it is amazing stuff, i'm going to order myself soon hopefully.

 

Josh

[Rashelle]

I also have not forge welded 5160 to itself. I have forge welded it to mild steel. As you are doing an eye weld, I'll tell you how I first learned how to forge weld.

 

I started by using something along the size of 1/16"x1/2" flat stock. It may of been 1/8"x1/2" flat stock seems, It was just small around that size.

 

Being smaller it was harder to do due to the fact that it lost the heat quick. Lol that taught me to be quick about it and know how hard to hit where for the first hits before pulling it from the fire. What I was making were miniature Fort Vancouver Hudson Bay camp axes. As I was using less then 2' of material at a time and it was tiny I was able to make many attempts in a rapid succession learning each time. Thus was accomplished wrapped eye axe welds. By miniature I mean jewelry sized. As they were found at the Fort Vancouver site. LOL though the archeologists maintain they were toys rather then jewelry we can leave them to argue that out they make neat little pendants and you can do a lot of forge welds in a small amount of time with little stock loss.

 

I later made some slightly bigger miniature axes. Wow did they go easier, due to learning it on the smaller stock these held the heat longer.

 

But back to the purpose of my reply. Doing these or something similar can gain you the skill working on smaller scale faster then trying to learn on your own on something bigger. You can then later work on the bigger stuff and it'll usually go smoother.

 

Just a thought for a way to practice.

 

Rashelle

[Ridgewayforge]

Have you had continuous success with mild steel? I would start off welding mild steel to itself: Make yourself some flux spoons, chain, faggot welds etc. And then once you can continuous get the weld to take, then move on to your froes. Don't try and rush the processes. Understand it first, before you move on to froes and axes.

[Rich Hale]

 

Several things wrong here. I douibt if the 5160 would make a stronger froe than the rasp you tried. It has alot to do with heat treat and how it is done. Many steels could be used for this. Again how they would word would depend on heat treat.  

5160 has chrome in it. and that makes a difficult weld. You may read that as a new  person to forge welding has a poor chance of getting it done.

A leaf spring from an american car or truck may be right for wot you want.

You will shorten your learning curve alot if you get into a smithing group and see wot is done and how. There is s section on here of groups in wot areas.

High carbon steel welds at lower temp than mild steel. How you will achieve that will again be easier if you see it done first.

The above answers posted are of two types..Those that say I have never done this but this will work...or from folks like Bryan B that offers a item that may indeed help you endeavors.

The only thing needed to answer question in this forum is a puter.......It is up to the person posing a question to determine which answers to go with.

Tough to do!

By the way If you stop by my shop I will show you how to forge weld HC steel. But will stay away from 5160.

Flourides in the flux can kill you,,,Only folks with the correct knowledge and proper protective gear should use them. Easier to avoid the need.

And anyone that does not know better than to suggest this should rethink doing it!

[MOblacksmith0530]

I forge weld in my Chili forge but you have to be sure to get the atmosphere right. Forge welding requires a rich flame. make sure your dampers on the burners are closed at least half way. With a really right flame it will not oxidize the piece near as much and you will have better success. Having said that I don't have much luck with 5160 in gas I do better with it in coal. I have done some pattern welded with 5160 in gas but it was a real struggle I dept fighting with bubbles or blisters that didn't want to weld and I had to eventually cut them out and re-weld. The froe made of a rasp should have been fine. I would also suggest trying another flux it sometimes seems to help. I use iron mountain as my (make the weld if at all possible flux).