Tong Rein Shape?

[LastRonin]

I was wondering if there was a reason other than time and effort needed to do it for why tong reins aren't made this shape? Here is a picture showing a cross-section view of what I am asking about. I would think that the 'T' shape would provide a stronger rein with lower weight than just square, round or rectangular does.

 

I have an idea in my head that would make it fairly easy to do, at least in theory... lol.

 

But anyway, Any information or suggestions about this? Should I pursue it?

[cvmikeray]

Look at OCP Tongs

They took over Grants line.

 

Here is an example.

[swedefiddle]

That design will work good. Wide enough so the tongs are comfortable to hold and strong with the "I"-beam.

 

Grant's tongs are like that, on the gripping end, they change to a stronger'I' profile closer to the hinge area for strength.

 

The best set of Tongs are the ones you have, that work properly. :)

 

Neil

[DanBrassaw]

I can't think of a reason other than time and effort to not do that, but time and effort are pretty good reasons! If you're forging them by hand, especially without a striker, I think that would add an unnecessary amount of work, since round reined tongs work well enough.

[batesblacksmithshop]

tongs have been used since the first smith,if it aint broke why fix it ?

[Francis Trez Cole]

in Grants design it is using the lease amount of material to get the most strength. I have made them round and square no real differences to me. As a smith you will create you own style and what works best for you. Some smith just weld on the size round rod that fits the size tongs they are making. If you have the time you can just hammer them out by hand or power hammer. When I go to do a demo I carry a couple blanks in my tool box I take a piece of 3/4" x 10" and forge out the rains under the power hammer in my shop and leave about 3" at the end untouched. So if I need a pair of tongs that I do not have all I have to do is make a set on site. 

[macbruce]

Grant really got it right when he made his OCP tongs lighter,more durable, and of better steel. The stronger shape of the 'T' reins also contributed. He didn't ''fix'' tongs he improved them and I prize those little tongs above all others when I can use em.

. I was fortunate to see his operation shortly before he passed and it was fascinating to watch.I reckon I could make a bottom die in the shape of a T for the PH and pound out reins into that shape whereas Grant forged em in one easy push along with several other quick steps via some impressive forging equipment. Truth be known I'd rather buy tongs but I did make a pair once..... ^_^

[yesteryearforge]

I can make tongs

I also can make hambugers But I usually go to McDonalds and buy one.

OCP

Tom tongs

Billy tongs

All are made far better than anything ive ever done.

I have several tongs made by some of the best smiths out there,and as good as they are ,they are not as good as the Tom tongs etc.

[MOblacksmith0530]

Ed Harped made his reins like that I believe he had a die for his tire hammer or little giant I am not sure but all the above reasons are correct. I make tongs as needed and I buy them when I can I can usually but them cheaper than I can make them so it only makes sense. I own a bunch of Tom tongs because of proximity and some sales he ran in the past.

[LastRonin]

ok guys. Thank you for the information. Since there doesn't seem to be any reason it won't work... I plan to make at least one pair like this (if for no other reason than the learning experience). I already have the materials free (3/4" x 1 1/8" x 8"  X80 steel), so the only cost is going to be my own time and sweat. (Hopefully no blood or tears will be spilled, lol). I'll consider those expenditures 'tuition' for the experience and knowledge I'll gain from doing this.

 

Once again, thank you all for your contributions of knowledge and experience.

[Jack Evers]

It's all compromise, wider reins mean more hand comfort (less pressure), deeper reins mean more bending strength, but increasing both while keeping the same cross section shape means more steel, more weight, less comfort. Going to more complicated shapes such as a "T" or "C", means more work to make. Add springiness (high strength steels) also allows the weight to drop, but increases the cost. I'll try to run some numbers on the "T" shape later today.

If I'm working larger sections where I really need a grip, I usually reach for the Vice Grips.

All that said, my favorite hoof nippers under most conditions ( a bit light for dry spells and hard dry feet) were custom made and have the reins forged to about 1 inch by 3/16 near the end (slightly thicker toward the rivet). and wrapped into a shallow "C" shape. Mid rein they would have steel equal to about 3/8 square stock while the nipper considered by most farriers to be the "gold standard" for mass produced would represent about 1/2 inch square stock at mid rein. This gives reins about 20% wider, and 40% lighter than the commercial ones, while being nearly as strong. Very comfortable to use. That nipper also cost me $250 when the top commercial ones were about $100.

EDIT By the way my decription of "forged out and wrapped" is just descriptive. It was done with a swedge and fuller. Might also say that nippers are normally used with two hands and need good bending strength.

[Jack Evers]

There's are infinite geometries to what you're doing, but some reasonable geometries using the same steel area say 0.25 inches squared  or equivalent in weight to a 1/2" by 1/2" bar shows that you're proposed approach could make the reins perhaps three to five times stronger in bending than a square bar even with the reins being 3/4 inch wide or conversely the reins could just be lighter weight and be as strong. Personally, I like the "C" section for comfort and it seems like it would be easier to do, although I never tried.

 

Good luck with your experiment

Jack

[Francis Trez Cole]

Last  you are in alabama take a one day class from Brian Brazeal on tong making

[Frosty]

Make them how you like, come up with good tricks for making them easily and quickly and share it here. Seriously, as said tools you make for yourself will be what YOU like, eventually that is, there is a learning curve here even for smiths who've been doing it for decades. Wider grip area is a good thing, easier on the hands and beefed in the right area for a tensile material like steel. Narrower in the compressive section is good, steel is stronger in tension unlike oh say wood. If you have any around or are close to a library check out the differences between wood, compressive, trusses and steel, tension, trusses. sometimes It's pretty subtle but they are different.

 

Okay, that's more than enough, almost philosophical ramblings. forging either an "I" or "T" shaped tong isn't too hard. Start by forging the bar down to an obtuse wedge. Next simply forge the top of the "T" by driving it into a swage from the narrow side. Lastly (we hope. <grin>) refine the leg of the "T", either over the end of the horn or a fuller around say a 3/4"-1" dia. with a cross pein of larger radius.

 

The processes should form nicely rounded faces, both under the hand and on the narrow leg.

 

Be aware, I've never forged tong reins like this, in fact most all my tongs have come out laughably . . . weird. <grin> However, experience suggests departure points for a new, to me, process and the above is where I'd start and refine the technique till it proved worthwhile or a bust. Remember failures are important, they save lots of time in the future and often as not something that doesn't work for this will be the BOMB for something else. Failure analysis is a large important part of blacksmithing.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[LastRonin]

Ok. I will digest all the information and advise.

 

Francis Trez Cole> I would love to take any and all classes possible with Mr Brazeal... as soon as I can afford the cost (Including time away from what is currently feeding my family.

 

Frosty>  Thanks. I am a stubborn kinda fellow anyway... lol. Since no one has given a definitive reason they would NOT work, then in my stubborn-ness, I want to try. I'll learn something either way. If it works or not, I intend to post the results, maybe even include progress pics. Heck if it does work like it plays out in my head, I'll try to put together a BP. If not, I'll happily post a '1 new way NOT to forge tong reins.' thread.

[LastRonin]

By the way... the original posting I made was just a question for curiosity, the more it got attention saying basically that 'that was just the way it's done', the more I decided to try it. I have now already started the tooling I imagined for doing this. Wish me luck.

[MOblacksmith0530]

If I were going to do it I would make a spring tool with a slightly rounded top tool for the top of the "T" and a grooved bottom tool for the leg of the "T" I woul dmake it to mount in the power hammer but it would also work mounted in the hardie on an anvil and struck with a hammer.

[LastRonin]

I got my tong hardy finished today. I don't have a power hammer, so I made a tool I know I can use. Here are some pictures of it.

This shows the whole tool. It is forged from a piece of X80 steel that started at 3/4" x 1 1/8". It was a piece cut from gas-line pipe.(Don't worry, I didn't go cut into a gas line, it came from the scrap bin of a company that makes large diameter gas pipe. They gave me about 120# of scrap pieces that wide and long, most were 3/4" thick but I have a few 1/2" thick.)

I started by straightening it (remember, it was a test piece cut from the side of a pipe, and so it had a slight curve to it). Then I forged about 2 1/2" of it down to just over 7/8" square to fit my hardy hole. I heated it to yellow and drove it into my hardy hole to make a good snug fit. Then I creased it about 2/3 of the way through just above the forged down part. I then reheated it, quenched the hardy insert part and hammered it over to lay flat on my anvil face. This left about a 6" long section to work with. I reheated that part to yellow and reinserted it into the hardy hole. Then I used an old wrench that's middle was the width I wanted my Tong handles to be and laid it flat atop the piece and hammered it down into the metal, tilting it to each side to create something of a fuller effect. Then I took a larger wrench, turned it on edge and centered it in the first depression then hammered it in as well, doing the fuller thing on it as well.

I then quenched it and inserted it into my hardy hole. I took a piece of scrap 1/2" mild steel round and heated it to yellow (actually went to welding heat or a touch above, it was sparklering). Forged part of it down to about 3/8" round and reheated. Put it onto the shaping form and drew it out. It wasn't real pretty due to the tool not being finish ground or anything, but it worked as a proof of concept. Sorry I didn't take pictures of that. The batteries in my camera were dead. Now that I know the tool will work, I have finish ground the working surfaces, refined the shape a bit and ground a bottom fuller into the middle 4" of the tool. Figured make it multipurpose. The reason I used the 'L' shape for my hardy tool, is the missing faceplate on the back corner of my anvil's heel, I don't want to over-stress the heel, so I put the work-surface over the anvils sweet spot.

P.S. Sorry for the fuzziness of the pictures, but I believe they show the shape of the tooling and all clear enough. Any comments, suggestions or critiques would be welcome.

[Francis Trez Cole]

its a cool looking tool the only comment I would make when making tools you may want the tool to be the same size as your hammer face that way you get the most work with the face of the hammer with each swing. Hope this helps

[LastRonin]

That makes sense. But the only thing in this situation is that it is also a drawing die. So then, shouldn't it be narrower like a bottom fuller? (which is what the 4" rounded section is all by itself)

[VaughnT]

The swage portion can match the size of your hammer face, and the fuller section can be rounded over without sacrificing the fullering ability.  The radius of the fuller will dictate how much it moves the metal, much like the varying radii on the horn change how the metal moves when you use it as a fuller.

 

Of course, none of this is set in stone.  The tool you made is very neat, and I'll more than likely steal the idea from you.

[pkrankow]

I was thinking making a spring swage with that shape and a slight curve for the top die...but seeing that, and VaughnT's comment, I wonder why need a top die?

 

I look forward to seeing a set of tongs with this profile.

 

Phil

[LastRonin]

@VaughnT: Thanks for explaining that. I'll remember that the next time I make a swage. Feel free to use the idea and probably even improve on it. Please post pics, maybe I'll see something I wanna steal, lol.

 

@Phil: I did a test using a piece of scrap 1/2" round mild steel. As long as I stopped hammering before the sides mushroomed over the sides, it left a nice slightly rounded top. And any rough edge on the sides were easily planished out. As soon as my work schedule and the weather cooperate I plan to make my first set of tongs. I'll post pics.