matei campan Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 in the beginning, I was looking for hard hammers to use in the forging, but after few missing blows and little dents in the anvil, I've started to favor softer hammers for forging (also, they are cheaper and easier to modify). so are there any reasons for that the forging hammers (which touch just hot iron and, on occasion, the anvil) to be on the hard side rather than the soft side, and I miss them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yesteryearforge Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 HAMMER CONTROL is PARAMOUNT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 You will probably get a lot of opinions on this question. I have a couple of hand hammers I made from high carbon steel then hardened and tempered to about 45 Rc. Over time, both of these mushroom very slightly around the face but are easy to dress. Hammers are like anvils to a degree in that hardness lends resistance to damage so the surfaces remain smooth and don't mark the forging. In addition, we often hit harder materials such as punches, chisels, etc - so a dead soft hammer will likely be marked from that type of work. I suppose if I were to err for safety's sake, it would be on the soft side to prevent breakage - but some hardness resists wear and is desirable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 I have a hammer that I modified by reforging and did not harden it afterwards. I find the face gets damaged very easily. Straightening "cold" iron would sometimes damage the face. Striking any tooling is an instant mark in the face. I quit using this hammer in favor of others. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matei campan Posted October 23, 2012 Author Share Posted October 23, 2012 yes, hammer control is paramount, but, once in a year, I misplace a blow, with all my control, and, usually, that's a heavy blow. dressing a hammer takes no more than a couple of minutes, once in a couple of years, if it's necessary at all. and, in the end, a hammer is very easily replaceable. for hitting the tools, I understand the interest and I use hard hammers and I have ones dedicated for this, that's why I asked about those which work just on hot metal. well not as soft as "dead soft", but softer than the anvil... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 yes, hammer control is paramount, but, once in a year, I misplace a blow, with all my control, and, usually, that's a heavy blow. dressing a hammer takes no more than a couple of minutes, once in a couple of years, if it's necessary at all. and, in the end, a hammer is very easily replaceable. for hitting the tools, I understand the interest and I use hard hammers, that's why I asked about those which work just on hot metal. They will mushroom - even if only forging "hot" metal (which cools off as we work). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 I have an old french crosspeen where the face is dead soft. It's a favorite of mine for students who have trouble with hammer control as they CAN'T damage the anvil or other tooling with it. They seem to like it too; perhaps because I don't growl and scowl when they mis-strike with it. Most of my knifemaking hammers are pretty hard as I want to leave as fine a surface as I can and the knife steels can be downright obdurate under the hammer, (D2 for example...) It is far easier to refinish or even replace a hammer head than an anvil! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matei campan Posted October 23, 2012 Author Share Posted October 23, 2012 that things are evident, what I was thinking is that I was missing something about rebound and things like that, things which are not so evident, at least for me. my forging hammers, especially the big ones for gross work, are on the medium-soft side for a hammer, not dead soft, but they don't mark the anvils I own, which are not quiet in the 60s HRC, though not too soft either, even that a hard hammer will mark most of them. by the other hand, they are not mushroomed yet, not obviously marked and once in a while I just have to dress them lightly. I don't use hammers in that state of damage that they leave unwanted marks on the work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 I used to have a very old cross peen head which had a wrought iron body with a thin steel face (probably about 1/8" thick) but the peen was soft. The face was quite hard and would slide a file - I never hafted it and eventually traded it off but always thought it would have made a good hammer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rthibeau Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 A "dead soft" hammer is useful on occasion or use a brass or copper hammer. A hammer dedicated to hitting tools like chisels and punches is good as are hammers of various weights and styles for forging hot metal. If you have several of each type then it will be years before you have to finally dress them all and start over. I tend to make my hammers a bit on the hard side for forging, but I have enough that I don't think I'll need to dress any for quite some time. The rule is: Acquire all the hammers you can and don't worry about it. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 I just tried out my latest hammer on Saturday, a Bell System linesman's hammer, 36 oz, double, round flat faces. Too flat for my general taste so it goes on the rack for those special jobs where it would be just *perfect*. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matei campan Posted October 23, 2012 Author Share Posted October 23, 2012 speaking of hammer acquisitions, I bought 4 ~2.5-3kg sledge heads quiet cheap and not so hard, which I transformed into drawing sledges. I had to make some damascus, and using usual one hand hammering (no PH yet...) is quiet slow, as you know and a real pain in the back. so, I've started to hold the steel bar to which the billet is welded between the legs and to hammer with the sledge two handed, and I have to say that's far better, maybe 3 times faster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 My main shop anvil has a very broad horn, 515# Fisher, I like to use it for drawing by facing the horn with the billet at 90 deg across it and then I have a straight peen sledge with a very blunt peen---looks like a 25mm radius on it---and a short handle for using 1 handed. It's only 3-4 kg and it does take some build up of muscles to be effective with it one handed---the short handle helps! But with the horn on one side and the sledge peen on the other drawing is very much faster. I make sure to flip the billet over every time I put it in the forge to even out the drawing as the two curves are not quite equal. Anyway a lot less troublesome than holding the tongs between your legs; though that method can be quite good at telling you when you miss a blow or the metal is cooling off... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yesteryearforge Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 My anvil is hard ( 59 rockwell ) and my 4 main forging hammers ( 1 1/2 thru 5 lbs ) are hard ( upper 50s rockwell ) If your anvil is the PROPER height for YOU and you hit it FAIR & SQUARE it should not leave any dings. That is of course if one first rules out Fatigue , too large of hammer , over zealous hammering etc.etc.etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yesteryearforge Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 My anvil is hard ( 59 rockwell ) and my 4 main forging hammers ( 1 1/2 thru 5 lbs ) are hard ( upper 50s rockwell ) If your anvil is the PROPER height for YOU and you hit it FAIR & SQUARE it should not leave any dings. That is of course if one first rules out Fatigue , too large of hammer , over zealous hammering etc.etc.etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Matei, make sure that piece is flat on the anvil, if the far end is a bit high you could end up in the soprano section of the Vienna Boys Quior :D I prefer my hammers to be just soft enough that a file will cut them and I never use my forging hammers for beater hammers. I have 2 engineer hammers painted red, that way they are easier to find, for my beater hammers and I use them for tool that must be struck. Forging hammers only hit hot iron. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 I like my forging hammers hard and polished. Hard has less yield and so transferes more energy into the work, same as a hard anvil face. Polished means the work will move more easily as there are no dings, scratches, etc. to increase friction. As the hammer and anvil pinches the iron the work moves across both faces under pressure so every bit of texture allows the stock to bite in and decrease movement. Hope that makes more sense than it seems. <grin> Soft hammers have their place too as striking hammers for top tools, chisels, etc. being soft not only doesn't mushroom the struck end nearly as much if at all AND if the struck end of a top tool bites into the hammer face a bit the hammer can't slide off. So, not only aren't the top tools suffering less damage your blows are more sure and won't slip or glance. Sure the hammers get pretty mangled looking but they aren't hard to dress, heck a hack saw works just fine. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Hard or soft is relative, and most reasons for using either have been proferred. However, the state of the face of both hammer and anvil reflects on the finish obtained on the workpiece when forging, so smooth is what you should be looking for (IMHO), Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Frosty I seem to remember you using a "soft *faced* hammer" on a great white birch and getting it rather mangled... I try to learn from the experience of others and keep that in mind as I have to start cutting our winter's wood soon; first fire in the wood stove is probably Friday night... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Turley Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 My fave, most used hammer is a 2.5 # Channellock, and it is pretty hard. I've used it for years and have only polished it occasionally with a Scotchbrite wheel. My home made hammers have been of old axle steel, medium carbon, hardened in water and tempered to dark straw, 465F...at the "hard" end of the heat rainbow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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