Scrolls, machine, buy or build

[peter]

Hello all,

I am not getting consistent results while freehanding scrolls; repeatability becomses a hit or miss proposition. My thought is to produce or buy a scrolling rig of some sort. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Rgds,
Peter

[irnsrgn]

http://www.iforgeiron.com/blueprints-000-100/bp0021-twister.html

[rthibeau]

make a jig for the sizes you most make/use. to make just a curve consistently, make a bending jig from pipe and angle iron, see BP 0406.

http://www.iforgeiron.com/blueprints-400-500/bp0406-s-bending-jig.html

For actual scrolls with more than a turn or so in the curve, use 1/4 x 3/4 flat bar to make the jig by forming one end of the scroll, then bend the opposite end down at a 90

[Glenn]

Blueprints on scrolls and bending forks.
BP0026 Principles of Design
BP0323 Spirals and Scrolls

BP0147 Half Penny Snub End Scroll
BP0069 French Buttons & Scroll Starts
BP0031 Scroll Design

BP0030 Scroll Design
BP0029 Scroll Design
BP0028 Scroll Jigs

BP0027 Scroll Design
BP0025 Scroll Design
BP0024 Scroll Design

BP0023 Scroll Design
BP0022 Scroll Generator

Bending forks that help tweak the scrolls
BP0285 Bending Forks
BP0257 Bending Fork
BP0360 Multi-Position Bending Fork
BP0290 Bending Forks
BP0121 Vise Bending Forks

I am sure there are more, but this should get you started. Spend some time with BP0026 Principles of Design, draw it out on paper and then lay the metal down against the pattern. Adjust as needed.

Did anyone mention that you should make 100 scrolls and find the two that match? Then throw the others into the scrap pile It takes practice and more practice to make items identical. The metal has to be consistent, the heating has to be consistent, and you have to be consistent. Just takes practice.

How many scrolls do you need and how many different sizes? A few can be done by hand, a few more if you use a jig. If you have enough scrolls to make, can the project pay for the machine? Remember that the machine has a learning curve and a lot of waste learning how to do things right.

[proudwhitetrash]

when making scrolls or bends even with a machine they will never be the same. metal has diffrent makeup and it all bends diffrent. at our shop we all ways make one scroll as a sample and then use that as a templet. and use the bending fork to get them near the same.

[johnny99]

Same here.

[Strine]

Gee biting your tongue hurts!

[Strine]

Blueprints on scrolls and bending forks.
It takes practice and more practice to make items identical.

That about sums up my response

[irnsrgn]

oops, I misread the original post to say twisting.

Sorry

[peter]

Alcon,

Thank you all for your research and suggestions. The answer appears to be build as opposed to buy. I am off to the shop.

Rgds,
peter

[irnsrgn]

jigs work well

[David E.]

I apologise if my first post sounds negative,but,IMO the beauty of hand made/forged items lie partly in the fact that no two items are identical.Make a virtue of it.

[Ian]

It's true that to hand forge an identical pair of scrolls is not the easiest thing you can do (like say; breathing, for instance) but it has to be considered a worthy goal to try an achieve that level of consistency. I'd bet money that even the most expert Smith would make and use a jig if he had a large enough number to make for a job, and if he had LOADS to do he might well consider the advantage of buying a machine. The point to remember IMHO is that until you CAN make two identical scrolls your lacking the skills you really need in order to make a CHOICE about how you want to do the job.

[Mills]

I agree Ian, I did 300 + scrolls for a fence and bent them on jig. I did find a couple that matched. There is no way around the practice factor however you want to slice, dice, or julian fry it. I believe that learning to do them by hand is probably the most cost effective way to learn. Once there, the decision for more equipment becomes one of economics rather than a crutch for poor skills. I have only recently made REAL use of the tools I have been aquiring for a long time now. My skills are catching up to my tool inventory.

[Strine]

I believe that learning to do them by hand is probably the most cost effective way to learn. Once there, the decision for more equipment becomes one of economics rather than a crutch for poor skills.

So eloquently put. Bravo.

I also ask the question, which came first, the chook or the goog. How can you make a jig if you can't make a scroll by hand per your design.

[Raulo]

hey, I joined up because I need some help putting together some scroll-bending jigs. I've got one to do up to quarter-inch stock, but what do I do with anything thicker?
Also, for some reason, the links I'm interested in reading are all '404 error', what's up with that?
thanx

[arftist]

Make a "scroll mold". You only have to make one correctly that way. Make a scroll you like. Weld it across a section of angle iron. Clamp the angle iron in a vice. Start your scroll by hand (over the side of the anvil, or the horn or on a scroll starter, or however you do it. Once you have your start, heat as much of the piece as you can, wrap it around the mold, repeat till done. You may have to clamp the start, in which case cool the very end where the clamp will be. If the mold involes multiple revolutions, make the center higher so you have room to wrap the whole thing, then flatten the completed scroll. And remember, a scroll is an "ever increasing spiral". I routinely make molds for as few as three or four scrolls.

[Dodge]

hey, I joined up because I need some help putting together some scroll-bending jigs. I've got one to do up to quarter-inch stock, but what do I do with anything thicker?
Also, for some reason, the links I'm interested in reading are all '404 error', what's up with that?
thanx

BluePrints 201 - 999 are temporarily unavaiable

[Raulo]

Thanx Arftist. That's what I though I needed to do. Hopefully someone can eventualy put up some pics in order to put visuals to your words.
The advice is much appreciated.

Raulo

[aametalmaster]

Or you can cheat and make a machine...Bob
http://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/f43/motorized-scroller-4397/

[Mike Ameling]

Just make up your first trial scroll using heavy enough stock to begin with. If it is of heavy enough stock, it can work as-is as your "form". But you do have to watch that you do not push its limits and ... adjust ... it when bending thicker stock. That is why some people take that form and tack-weld it to a strip of angle iron or a flat plate. It keeps the form from bending on you.

Over at Jay's Big River Forge shop, he had several simple scroll jigs - just 1/4 to 5/8 by 1 1/2 to 2 inch stock formed into the scroll shape he wanted most. We would just clamp the end in a movable floor mounted vice to use it. Heat a bar up, flare or taper the end, then start the scroll on the anvil. Then heat up a section, hold/clamp it to the jig, and start bending it around. Just stop bending before you run out of heated area on your bar. Then heat another section, slip in on the jig, and bend the next section.

It worked well and fast - especially for the smaller stuff like 1/2 square or 1/4x1 inch flats. But I kept ... pushing ... the limits of that jig by scrolling 3/4 square on it - also 7/8 and 1 inch squares. There were a couple times I had to ... tweak ... that jig back to shape a bit. You can get a lot of leverage when swinging a 10 to 12 foot bar of 3/4 square around - even hot. (We should have tack that jig to some sort of base.) You also have to ... adjust ... your vice/jig/bending fork as you go - to get enough CLEAR room to maneuver things within the shop. No matter how much clear working space you start with, it never seems to be enough with long bars.

In the end, it is all a matter of the "economics" of the job. Are you going to be making enough of that specific scroll to justify making the original jig. But once you DO have that jig, it is surprising how often you end up using it - even as a starting point that you then tweak tighter or wider.

For sign hangers, table legs, and railing elements, I usually made one up, and then tried to tweak the rest of the scrolls to be close to that one.

Mikey - that grumpy ol' German blacksmith out in the Hinterlands

Edited April 3, 2009 by Mike Ameling
bad spellin

[arftist]

One shop I visited had a large amount of scroll molds hanging on the wall, at least thirty or more if I remember correctly. All of them were welded to a pipe which slid over a spindle of some type, and the each had four spokes. The smith would start the work then spin the mold by hand to complete the scroll. This was back when this trade was much more competitive and He was not really clear as to whether all the fuss was worth it or not, but I imagine it was since he had taken the time to set up ALL his scroll molds this way.

[Raulo]

Thank you, good people, for all the expert info. I believe I now have enough direction to give this a go. This forum is top notch. A great example of the positive side of the internet.

[Sam Thompson]

Or you can cheat and make a machine...Bob
http://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/f43/motorized-scroller-4397/

Using a machine like this is an insult to the very concept of blacksmithing. Cold bent steel is not, in any sense 'wrought ironwork', Anyone can knock out that kind of rubbish.

[Charlotte]

Using a machine like this is an insult to the very concept of blacksmithing. Cold bent steel is not, in any sense 'wrought ironwork', Anyone can knock out that kind of rubbish.

I agree with you in spirit! However, there are people that need some sort of commercial edge to make a living in the business.

Essentially it seems to me that the ornamental smith has basically three options. Develop a reputation in a locality for being an Art Smith and hussle the aspiring elites for commisions, or two, Compete in the local market against weldors who order there scrolls and ornamental fittings by the hundred weight from else where by offering custom designs and economizing his time and physical strength for those touches that make designs special or, three go broke and drive a truck to pay the bills.