raptorvan Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Hello all. this is my first post here so please excuse me if this is in the wrong section. i want to do an experiment. i want to make a damascus 1911 gun slide as well as a few kitchen knives. now, the slide need to be exceptionally hard AND tough yet machinable AFTER heat treating as i cannot heat treat after machining. it was recommended that i use 1060 and 5160 steel. my questions are...1. is this a good fit? i cant use certain steels because of the application. 2. how difficult would these steels be to work with, forge weld, draw out, refold reweld draw out....you get the idea. i know some steel go together like oil and water and some are almost impossible to work with especially with several weld and folds. i need hard and i need tough and i cannot heat treat after machining so i figured what i would do is, after the last weld heat and draw out i would heat it up one last time and let it air quench. is this a good solution? remember it still has to be machinable. KNIVES. i kind of wanted to do the same steels with a set of knives, damascus style. now i know that damascus uses different metals (unless the recipe is strictly subjective) but i would like the watermakr designs and the stregnth that comes with this style. i CANNOT for the life of me find 1060 steel in small quantity. is there possibly another "just as good" alternative? i know each steel had slightly different compositions yet very different properties. i want a good color contrast though......do any of you guys know a good supplier of both these metals? now, these were the ones recommended to me and while researchin i would have to agree. BUT, if there are better alternatives i would most certainly love to know about them.. thank you guys so much for the help. Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Do you have any experiance at metal working? Blacksmithing, Gunsmithing, Knifemaking? Do you have access to the needed equipment? Who told you what steels to use, and why? Who said thay have a strong contrast? Tough and hard is possable but there are better steels for that also. Welcome to the site Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SReynolds Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Hello. Happy to have you. I would assume that you have quite a lot of smithing in your background from what you have posted in terms of what you'll be making. Good luck w/the projects. That sounds like a challenge. I enjoy that aspect of the hobby. I teach an entry level class, and the first thing the guys want to do is pattern welding and knife making. I start them out on nails and that is where we stop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Do you plan to make the billet yourself? Do you plan to make a LOT of them before you get one you can trust? Or are you planning to design your own parachute and test it by jumping off a plane with it? Could you cover the I need it "exceptionally hard AND tough yet machinable" I read that as similar to "I need it exceptionally heavy but very light!" Which one are you going for? What are your skills and equipment? You can machine extremely hard materials with EDM that a Bridgeport wouldn't touch. Why can't you heat treat it after machining? Send it to a pro! You will have so much time and effort and materials in that that quibbling over the cost of professional heat treating is like sending your Maserati to a Yugo mechanic to save a couple of bucks... Note that pattern welded material can be weaker than homogenous steels "strength" doesn't particularly come with it---especially if you have no experience in making it. Think of 500 layers with the possibility of a bad weld, inclusions, decarburization, etc at *every* layer boundary. To me this project sounds like a "in 3-5 years I want to be able to do this" and not a "want it done by Christmas" project. Do you have the time to get good at a bunch of different things *first*? As for steels you might look at what steels are currently used to make slides and then tweak your mix to be similar in carbon content to those. To get good contrast I would use something like L6 with an appreciable Ni content over 5160 and a plain carbon steel for the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xwingace Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 An improperly made slide will get you dead, you know. Have a gunsmith check your work before you run a round through it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Yates Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Where are you from , Where do you work what do you do , Who is Building your Billet , What program will you use to cut the slide Where did you come up the the steel combination , and Why the sudden urge to build or do something that has been done ? your vagueness in your profile and in your statement is just as my questions to you Irritating . you fail to let folks know what your skill level is you will find folks on here do not and will not give out information such as you asked for as to avoid Killing you in your attempt to make something you should not be making if you do not have the skill level to do so . Try again and lets see if you can be a bit more descriptive then the possibility that you may overheard your Friends conversation about his work and another individuals Idea. Also I might suggest you see that the "experiment Damascus 1911 gun slide " is Not Part of a project that is covered under a "Confidentiality Clause Contract " Sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Welcome aboard Nick, glad to have ya. If you'll put your general location in your header you'll be pleasantly surprised (I hope) to find out how any list folk live within visiting distance. It'll also mean us old farts won't have to rely on our memories when traveling as to who's neighborhood we're in if we want a snack or a spot for a nap. As said making a pattern welded billet for something this tricky is NOT a beginner's project, not even close. Heck you've picked a couple steels that aren't going to like the shock for long, maybe 5160 but maybe not. Modern manufacturers use 4140 for a good reason. At any rate you aren't going to get knowledgeable folk here that are willing to incur the liability even if it's just moral liability of giving an unknown quantity (your skill level) info that can maybe probably will get him/er killed. We just ain't gonna do it. Heck, every so often someone will realize thermite is used to weld and comes up with the idea of using it in a forge to forge weld. Even though it's a really easy thing to make most adults don't post the recipe, it's just too dangerous. Still, stick around and talk to the gang, we'll fall all over ourselves helping you learn the craft. Frosty the Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raptorvan Posted October 12, 2012 Author Share Posted October 12, 2012 ok i guess i should have covered all that. i live in Dearborn MI. about 7 minutes west of Detroit. i worked for 8 yrs in a fabrication shop working with steel. i have blacksmithing experience HOWEVER i have not dont pattern welding....which is why i asked all these questions. i DO i have access to a #D printer, CAD CAM AutoDesk a Tor-Mac machine, metal lathes, Lathe, large metal, with digital readout and tooling Milling machine, large, with digital readout and tooling Milling machine, 4-xxis, CNC. as well as tig mig and flux core welders. i also work part time currently at a tool and die shop and build custom 1911's for competition. the tool and die shop i work at we also make many componants for firearms as well as service and installation of parts as well as refining OEM parts. slides are made out of either a stainless 440 or a high, medium high carbon steel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raptorvan Posted October 12, 2012 Author Share Posted October 12, 2012 i talked with a few semi pro blacksmiths who told me that this is what i needed. i think it was more for the composition more than the contrast. but like i said, if there is a better recipe im all ears. i am making the billet myself. i plan on making several and beating the hell out of each one to test and find their inherient flaws or flaws with my process. why i asked is i could heat treat the billet then machine it? because, at least as far as standard gun slides go, the manufactures lose a lot of them in the final treatment to warping. which is why a slide costs $200.00 or more. BUT if i CAN get it done professionally i will. i will also test one made my way and one made professionally (heat treated that is) before i ever put one on my gun and in my hands. But thank you for the info, i will look into those steels. i would like a medium high carbon steel though. i plan to take the death out of the equation. i have the capabilities to torture test this before it ever makes it into the hand of a shooter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raptorvan Posted October 12, 2012 Author Share Posted October 12, 2012 Welcome aboard Nick, glad to have ya. If you'll put your general location in your header you'll be pleasantly surprised (I hope) to find out how any list folk live within visiting distance. It'll also mean us old farts won't have to rely on our memories when traveling as to who's neighborhood we're in if we want a snack or a spot for a nap. As said making a pattern welded billet for something this tricky is NOT a beginner's project, not even close. Heck you've picked a couple steels that aren't going to like the shock for long, maybe 5160 but maybe not. Modern manufacturers use 4140 for a good reason. At any rate you aren't going to get knowledgeable folk here that are willing to incur the liability even if it's just moral liability of giving an unknown quantity (your skill level) info that can maybe probably will get him/er killed. We just ain't gonna do it. Heck, every so often someone will realize thermite is used to weld and comes up with the idea of using it in a forge to forge weld. Even though it's a really easy thing to make most adults don't post the recipe, it's just too dangerous. Still, stick around and talk to the gang, we'll fall all over ourselves helping you learn the craft. Frosty the Lucky.thanks frosty. i hope to put people at ease as i plan on making a bunch and making them fail until i get it right. before any piece ever makes it into a shooters hand. i know the dangers. I do firearms training on the side and ive seen glocks and S&Ws blow up. thank you for the info and i do plan on staying around. i would like to soak it all up. as with any expansion of skills i like to dive in and get everything out of it. again, i am going off of recommendations, which is why i came here, because, to be honest, i dont know how certain metals will interact with each other and how well they can be worked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raptorvan Posted October 12, 2012 Author Share Posted October 12, 2012 Where are you from..... i am from detroit., Where do you work what do you do i work a few jobs. one at a steel fab shop, a tool and die shop, and as a firearms trainer. , Who is Building your Billet.....I am, which is why i asked about this particular combination , What program will you use to cut the slide....i will be using a 3D printer to scan an existing slide then going from CAD to CAM and using a Tormach CNC. Where did you come up the the steel combination i asked a couple semi pro blacksmiths and they came up with it. , and Why the sudden urge to build or do something that has been done ?why not? i like the concept, i like the look and i dont want to pay 1,000.00 for someone else to make it. plus if i can do it right i can offer it on my builds. your vagueness in your profile and in your statement is just as my questions to you Irritating . you fail to let folks know what your skill level is you will find folks on here do not and will not give out information such as you asked for as to avoid Killing you in your attempt to make something you should not be making if you do not have the skill level to do so .i have been smithing for years. i have not, however, done pattern welding. i plan on testing these billets and then the slides before they ever make it onto a production piece, to find any inherient flaws or flaws with my process. Try again and lets see if you can be a bit more descriptive then the possibility that you may overheard your Friends conversation about his work and another individuals Idea. Also I might suggest you see that the "experiment Damascus 1911 gun slide " is Not Part of a project that is covered under a "Confidentiality Clause Contract "....im not sure what this means but if you are asking if im trying to knock off my employers proprietary information...im not. Sam .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Wow that's a relief! You can imagine our surprise to actually get someone with a clue wanting to extend the envelope a bit... IIRC Hrisoulas has a couple of pictures of pattern welded gun work in one of his books and they might be a good place to start. If you are not going for good contrast---why use the material? You will probably want to weld in a "can" and use a propane forge and hydraulic press to try to get minimum defects. Testing the results with n >> 1 is a pretty much mandatory idea. Are you thinking of offering the PW version as a "dress up" option with a regular slide for day to day use? (Have to tune both of them to that gun...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Yates Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 I do wish you the best of luck in your project. Sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsoldat Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 http://meiersteel.com/main.html Might a place to ask about pattern welded steel. All the bladesmiths think he's a guru in the sword forums. I'm sure he's made billets for slides at some point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raptorvan Posted October 13, 2012 Author Share Posted October 13, 2012 Wow that's a relief! You can imagine our surprise to actually get someone with a clue wanting to extend the envelope a bit... IIRC Hrisoulas has a couple of pictures of pattern welded gun work in one of his books and they might be a good place to start. If you are not going for good contrast---why use the material? You will probably want to weld in a "can" and use a propane forge and hydraulic press to try to get minimum defects. Testing the results with n >> 1 is a pretty much mandatory idea. Are you thinking of offering the PW version as a "dress up" option with a regular slide for day to day use? (Have to tune both of them to that gun...)lol i can understand the hesitancy to give out info to a "popup" hobbiest. Hrisoulas has done some work on rifle barrels and recievers that are...well...always going to be out of my skill set. man they are beautiful works of art. the forge i have right now is made from fire brick with about a half an inch of refractory cement outside and another 1/4" inside and right now i am using a simple venturi burner with a high pressure regulator. it does the job but i might have to either trade up the burner or make it a screamer to get it hot enough to do it right. the slide would be....well...basically what i would do is i would take the slide from the customer, scan it with the stylus and get it into the program, that way the demensions and fit would be exactly made for that specific gun then thats how i would machine it. the slide is basically a novelty. it serves no real advantage other than being a cool alternative and something other than paint. but it would be tuned, produced, sighted, serratted and all around made as if someones life depended on it so it would be up to the customer whether or not they wanted to carry it, compete with it or just show it off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Novelty is where the *money* is at! Doing it *right* brings in even more hardcore folks and if you get a reputation for doing it right and pretty you may need to consider limiting your waiting list... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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