Gas forge TOO hot

[Mhogue715]

Recently I came across a little "portable gas forge" on Ebay for $200 and I may add that its the best working little forge. however I recently had a bit of an issue, I wasnt paying attention to my temperature and managed to melt through the ceramic blanket insulation, the firebrick shelf, and the bricks I put on the back of it, as well as several pieces I was attempting to work on. so my question is this, where is it possible to get insulation over 3000 degrees, why do people think its impossible to forge weld with gas, and how do people figure a gas forge will "Make the iron wither away instead of totally melt like a coal forge would do". It took no longer than 2 minutes to end up with a puddle of knife (keeping in mind I was using old lawn mower blades, forge welding them into solid billets and drawing them out) Can someone at least suggest how to better control the little monster? Its maximum PSI capacity is 30, I was operating under that and burnt the forge up (burner is still good!)
I have a few pictures below to justify what I just said, the picture of the forge was AFTER I pulled the burnt insulation out just to show how little the thing is, the melted knife, and the insulation, brick, and shelf, as well as a picture of it lit that I took in bright light, with my cellphone

[r smith]

It does not look like melted steel to me. Looks more like heavy scale which would indicate either to much oxygen(air) or to little fuel. If it is getting as hot as you say I would go with to much air- can you adjust the air down?

[Daniel.85]

Who thinks you cant forge weld in a gas forge? People have been doing it for a long time. And heat is heat, it will burn up your metal the same no mater what the fuel source. What psi were you running at? I run mine at 6-12psi usually, have had no reason to get anywhere near 30psi yet. The higher psi you go the more fuel you burn = more heat, try keeping it as low as you can to get what you need for forge welding.



p.s. I'll give someone a dollar if they can find someone who doesn't mention knives in one of their first 5 posts, lol.

[Daniel.85]

Looks like a lot of scale too, are you using borax as a flux for your forge welding? The metal in the 3rd pic looks pretty thin.

[pkrankow]

What regulator are you using? What pressure were you set at?

I run my forge at 3-10 PSI according to my gauge. It does take about 10 minutes to get to temperature.

If you are over pressuring your burner it will not mix the air and fuel charge well and you will get excess scale and unbelievable dragon's breath. (as seen in your first picture)

Phil

[2Tim215]

p.s. I'll give someone a dollar if they can find someone who doesn't mention knives in one of their first 5 posts, lol.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX ! thought I would get that dollar, but no, it's in my 3rd post.

Mod note: watch your language this is a G rated forum

[sanddraggin]

Guess I get the Dollar. I hadn't mentioned a knife till About my 50th Post....LOL

[ThomasPowers]

Nope it melted, you can see the arcs of melting in one area rather than the flat scaling.

The heavy scaling does indicate you are running too lean as well.


You know your car probably has a max speed of over 100 mph; but if you drive 90 you will still get a speeding ticket!

You can get high dollar high temperature insulation; but what you really need and want is to TURN THE PRESSURE DOWN! Unless you have money to throw around using standard insulation and a proper pressure through your burner will save you steel, insulation and gas!

Most of the pro damascus makers---the ones whose output per year is in the hundreds of pounds---use propane forges for welding. The issue is that not all propane forges will weld where nearly all coal forges can.

[Mhogue715]

I was using an imported gas regulator from I want to say Russia or some other country way out there, in Bars, It was set at only 1 bar and my air intake was the entire way open because if it gets closed much the burner gets scalding hot and makes me worry that my propane hose will fail. for my flux I was actually using pulvarized glass that my father had suggested, made things seem pretty easy to weld, I think a lot of my scale came from the 2 standard bricks behind the forge, the stuff all over the one brick was actually iron that I melted out of the brick so im assuming that played a big part in the downfall of the little forge.

Im trying to figure out how to have it set just right at the moment, I work with a lot of things such as mower blades, broken files and old kitchen knives so I need to weld them together to get a decent strength, I've so far done a ton of welds all with my glass as flux.

and someone previously mentioned the fierce dragonsbreath coming from the opening, it successfully heated a concrete block wall about 20 feet away so much that the paint started chipping off and it was scalding hot to the touch, as well as killing my apron, damaging my tongs, charring my wire brush and burning several gloves that were laying nearby (or on me)

My metal certainly did melt, I was wearing a pair of Dewalt tinted safety goggles and could see in the forge and all around through the glare of the fire, and the metal (and insulation) would start sparking and bubbling, several times I looked at my forge and saw sparks shooting out of the end, just to in a panic pull out the piece and have it dripping or accidentally fling it across the area

[son_of_bluegrass]

If memory serves, 1 bar is equal to about 15 pounds. I run my gas at 5-7 pounds for normal stuff and may turn it down once heated.

Unless your safety glasses are rated for both IR and UV, you shouldn't look into the forge much. There is more IR produced than UV and both probably will harm vision (UV for sure, some studies suggest IR as well). I think I remember reading that a welders shade 3 provides sufficient protection for your eyes from a forge.

ron

[r smith]

Can you get a different guage for the reg? Maybe 0-30 PSI. 1 BAR is about 14.5 PSI. I would try much less fuel and adjust the air accordingly.You may even need to change jet size. A lot of people would be jealous of the heat you are getting :D :D .

[pkrankow]

Ok, 1 bar is about 15psi. Not quite as over driven as I first thought, which was you were running straight off the bottle.

Pick up a standard stove firebrick and put it on the bottom of the forge over the hole in your insulation. The burner WILL burn through it after a while even at "normal" pressures, but it will take quite a time and is cheap.

Phil

[ThomasPowers]

It's not iron melting out of fire bricks. It can be melting firebricks reacting with the scale in your forge.

I would suggest a lower temp flux like borax. Glass was the flux used for real wrought iron that contains ferrous silicates already and *likes* temperatures that burn up modern steels.

Note that you can overheat high carbon steels and get spider web cracking or cottage cheesing so welding at too hot of a temperature may work---but the resultant won't for items you need high carbon/high alloy steels.

15 PSI is experimentally proven to be too high for that forge. if you cannot adjust the atmosphere in it THROW IT AWAY and get a system that will let you adjust the atmosphere in it correctly!

Finally cheap small gauges can be 50% or more Off; if you did not calibrate your gauge you really DON'T KNOW what you were running---why we suggest people learn to tune their blower by eye and ear to what works for their set up and IGNORE what other people using uncalibrated gauges say they run their system at. I use the gauge as a starting point and adjust form there to what's right!

[Mhogue715]

I will try my best to adjust things right, it is kind of neat knowing that my forge setup is better suited for wrought iron than modern steels. My goggles are torch goggles so im confident theyre just right for the job. my new insulation came in the mail today, castable 3000 degree insulation and a pottery kiln shelf. If need be Ill put copper tubing underneath the insulation when I cast in, and have a high pressure pump circulating water like what is done in blast furnaces.


Thank you everyone for the responses and advice

[ThomasPowers]

Ok let me try again: This is like you telling us your car goes too fast and your tires can't handle it and then you asking where can you get high speed tires. IT's not the tires that are the problem; you need to slow down!

[Frosty]

p.s. I'll give someone a dollar if they can find someone who doesn't mention knives in one of their first 5 posts, lol.

I'll send you my mailing address off list, I most surely didn't mention knives in my first five posts, maybe first 20. Hmmmm, if I count them up do I get a dollar for every five before I mentioned a knife?

Frosty The Lucky.

[Frosty]

Not being able to control the heat in your forge does NOT make it better or more suitable for wrought iron. Just because WI works better at higher temps than mild or high carbon steel doesn't mean it's desirable.

Okay, I haven't gone through all the text, I can't look at the monitor that long, I'm just getting over the shingles and it's really messed with my left eye. Anyway, it looks like this is a gun burner. A "gun" burner has it's combustion air supplied by a blower. Adjusting a gun is a little harder than a "naturally aspirated" burner. "Naturally Aspirated" means there is NO supplied air, it's all drawn into the burner by the gas jet which is aimed to induce or SUCK combustion air by generating a vacuum. Okay, here's the skinny, to adjust a gun you MUST adjust the air at the same time as you adjust the gas. Less gass means you must reduce the air intake or it'll become oxydizing or "lean" as us old carburator guys say.

There are other alternatives though, provided your gun is actually well adjusted. Of course you can buy better refractories, in your case I'd recomend a 4,000f high phosphate or phosphate bonded castable or rammable. The phosphate component will laugh at hot caustics like 3,000f borax and not be degraded by welding fluxes.

Another alternative is to make the forge larger. The more volume the more burner it takes to bring to a given temperature. For instance one 3/4" naturally aspirated burner whether mine, Ron Reil's, Mike Porter's, etc. will bring about 350 cu/in to welding heat reliable. If you put two 3/4" burners in the same volume prepare to keep a very close eye on your irons and the refractory because it's going to start melting both. Yeah, my old pipe forge melts steel, fire brick and Kaowool if I have it turned up past a goodness temp.

Another alternative is using a high temp coating like ITC-100. This is a kaolin and zirconia flour IR reflective coating. It's not perfect but it helps let your fire bricks and Kaowool survive too hot forge temps and welding fluxes.

My best advise is first buy a regulator that you can understand without going to school in eastern europe. Lose the blower. Search IFI for plans and drawings of naturally aspirated burners and build one or more as needed. Whi buil a burner when you already have one? A naturally aspirated burner is the easiest to use at work, just alter the propane psi and the fire goes up or down. Easy Peasy. Sure they're harder to make and get tuned but there are LOTS of us here who'll be happy to help. Heck, we'll even tell you what camera angles to take pics at so we can better evaluate the thing.

Well, that's my bit. Mother's home so I need to get cooking. <grin>

Frosty The Lucky.

[devilforge]

Hello i`m Vidas Eizanonas

 

I`m the owner of devil-forge company. Recently I found this forum and found photos of our forge. This forge runs to hot because you use to much propane and air. You can visit our official web page and you can found there all info, user manuals and movies how to use this forge and how to use burner right. If have any questions please feel free to contact me it`s better if you contact me directly trough our official web page then I can guarantee that you will get answer. 

 

Best regards,

 

Vidas Eizanonas