Hammer Size versus Work Size?

[Crunch]

Are there any rules of thumb for what various power hammer sizes are good for?

I would like to eventually get into tool making, knifes, chisels, swords, etc., especially with homemade "Damascus" steels that I would weld up and draw out and fold over ...

Would a 25# LG be suitable for this sort of work on a daily basis, or would most people want something bigger?

I know this is sort of a silly question (I imagine a 25# LG would be fine but a 100# hammer would be a lot faster), but I'm just trying to get a feel...

Thanks in advance for any insights.

C

[Francis Trez Cole]

LG is a great hammer. I have a Champion 65#. the hammer was designed to handle 1"x4" stock I have hammered 2 1/4" round stock in it with little effort. if you are looking try to find a LG 50. but a 25 is not a bad hammer. I f you are looking for new Look at http://www.anyangusa.net/ very good hammer for the money. that was my first choice but I ran across the champion in my own town could not pass it up. if you are not working with a lot of money look into a Clay Spencer tire hammer the great thing about it is you get to make it your self and it is a hard hitting hammer

[bigfootnampa]

Yeah there ARE some limits. You need enough force with the hammer to penetrate the center of the work with your force cone. Otherwise you'll end up with a billet that is only forged on the surfaces. If you'll be doing damascus on a daily basis a 25# LG will NOT be suitable... at least not for long. I'd say that the minimum size hammer I'd recommend for you would be the Say-Mak 50 which is a 110# hammer. You might get by with an Anyang 65# but I think you'd wish for a bigger one before long. These big hammers are expensive!! To buy, to ship, to set up... and you need a shop to run them in with lots of steel, a big forge and other tooling to handle the whole production picture. It is a daunting way to begin and few take such a route. Most guys start small and just keep adding stuff until they die and their heirs have to clean out that huge shop full of equipment. The beauty of doing it that way is that you learn some stuff as you go and by the time you get ready to buy a new piece of equipment you have a very good idea of what will work for you and how you'll use it (at least to start with). You are likely to discover that your interests are NOT very stable and you'll need to change the direction of your tooling more often than you expect.

[781]

I believe a 50# LG was rated for 2" round stock.
The rule is if you pound on a hot bar then look at the end if the center swells out you have enough hammer to forge to the center but if the end is concaved you only forged the outside of the bar and looking for trouble

[Justin Carnecchia]

If you looking mainly to work with damascus you might consider a hydraulic press.

[Crunch]

Thank you gentlemen. I did not know about that business with the force cone and the center swelling out. Thanks bigfootnampa and 781...I need to read up more on that.

Does anyone know what size stock a 25# LG is typically good for?

[peacock]

With drawing dies 1 1/2 wide I can work 1 1/2 stock but that is about the upper limit. The hammer must be in excellent shape if you are going to work it that hard. Hank welded alot of billets on his 25 # LG . Narrow dies and 375 blows a minute will move iron pretty quick if it's hot.

[MOblacksmith0530]

Last week I drew down some 1" un-anealed sucker rod on my 25lb little giant and it did a fine job. If you are going to be doing what you stated as a hobby for a while then I think a 25 would be fine. Having said that to some degree a power hammer is like a lathe you can do small stuff on a big lathe but can't do big stuff on a small lathe. ANd now having said that get the biggest you can afford and go from there. If you stick with it you will gather more as time goes by.

[Patrick Nowak]

The industrial rule of thumb for efficient/production type forging is 50 lbs ram weight for each 1 square inch of cross section. You certainly can work bigger material than that on most hammers, but to get good penentrating blows and rapid material flow its a pretty good guide.

[JNewman]

The industrial rule of thumb for efficient/production type forging is 50 lbs ram weight for each 1 square inch of cross section. You certainly can work bigger material than that on most hammers, but to get good penentrating blows and rapid material flow its a pretty good guide.

I really like this rule of thumb but keep in mind alloy/tool steels, swage and die work can up the weight required for efficient work. Combine them and you may need upwards of double this rule of thumb.

About 5 years ago I made 200 coke oven, door bolts I started with 1.25" 4340 round and drew most of that down to 1" round. I used a 100lb hammer and the drawing down was borderline efficient the swaging was definitely not. the next step was to upset and form the head in a bolster with a top die. The head was 1"wide by 1.75 long and between 3/4" and 7/8 deep. 100 lb barely did it taking a couple of heats for each head. Using the rule of thumb I was always fine but, I lost my shirt on the job because each bolt took twice what it should have. If I had had a hammer double the size I would have been fine.

[JNewman]

Last week I drew down some 1" un-anealed sucker rod on my 25lb little giant and it did a fine job. If you are going to be doing what you stated as a hobby for a while then I think a 25 would be fine. Having said that to some degree a power hammer is like a lathe you can do small stuff on a big lathe but can't do big stuff on a small lathe. ANd now having said that get the biggest you can afford and go from there. If you stick with it you will gather more as time goes by.

I don't understand what difference the sucker rod being annealed or not makes? When you have it up to a forging heat what heat treated condition the steel was in before you heated it makes no difference to it's forgability.

[basher]

Get yourself to some forge in or other blacksmiths gatherings .
you will have a much better idea of the tools and what they can do . be it press , power hammer or rolling mill (preferably all 3 of course).
I have done the great majority of my forging under a 60lb hammer and it has its limits , but has served me well for making swords and damascus for my self for quite a few years. I now have a 224lb hammer and it has its limits as well!! both are better for different operations.
For making damascus there is a definite billet size for a given hammer and above this it becomes quicker to make multiple billets and combine them. I found about a 4lb billet (pretty small) was the fastest size for my 60lb above that and it started to take too long ...

[poleframer]

To add to the question, at what size would you want a smaller secondary hammer? Of course there's the finess of the larger hammer controls, but wouldnt you use a smaller hammer than a 4B for under one inch stock? (1/2" w/e)
Like most other power tools, people who have big ones usually have a few smaller ones laying about.

[Dave H.]

The thing i like about larger hammers is they tend to run slower giving you more control. Also larger hammers have more room to use tooling. Lg made the 25Lb hammers for drawing out plow shears & similar work.. I would always vote for getting the biggest hammer within reason you can.

Dave Huffman

[Crunch]

Thank you all for all the really good replies. Lots of good information here to think about.

[Bentiron1946]

I had a 25#LG but I never made pattern welded steel with it just drew out for different shapes and such, used 1-1/2" square stock as my biggest and that took some time but was sure a lot faster than doing it by hand. A machine is almost always a bit better than hand for big stock. You can make pattern welded steel by hand, I have seen it at demos, but it takes a bit more work that than drawing it out even with a 25#LG which you can find on You Tube. So what to do? Well like one has said he uses a hydraulic press, you can see that on You Tube also, and you can build one of those yourself, or your buy a bigger LG say a 50# or a 100# or another brand of older used mechanical hammer or you can spring for a new or used Anyang which would cost more but turn out more pattern welded steel. You need to decide just how much of this stuff you are planning on producing, a whole bunch, to justify the cost of an expensive hammer, or just a small batch now and then and get a good 25# LG that will do for a few times a year, your choice.

[pike3e]

for pattern welded steel, I believe that a smallish hammer (under 100 pounds) and a hydraulic press is the best bang for your buck. The press takes forever to forge under half inch steel but will move large billets fairly easily. The smallish hammer does great on half inch or smaller steel but is slow on the big stuff. My combo of a 55 pound striker hammer and uncle al hydraulic press cost a total of 5600, both used.

[jason0012]

A 25# hammer is far better than no hammer at all. I ran one for years in production work and it really is underpowered for stock over 3/4 square. I forged some big stuff under it , but it was all I had at the time. If you intend to make money at this a 50 would be a minimum, a 100-250 ideal. Unless of course you want to get into a big hammer, and big forgings. The 25 was great when texturing stock and forging all those tiny things out of 1/2-1/4 stock, but my 100# does as well and and has the power to forge more serious stock. As for control, put a break on it and it will behave.

[anvil]

Francis Whitaker had a 25#LG,and called his shop a 1" shop. He certainly forged heavier iron with it, but felt this was a comfortable weight for his hammer.

[kubiack]

According to the Little Giant website a 25# hammer is rated at 2” round and a 50# hammer is rated at 3” round.

http://www.littlegianthammer.com/pdf_files/Useful%20Information.pdf

[macbruce]

According to the Little Giant website a 25# hammer is rated at 2” round and a 50# hammer is rated at 3” round.

http://www.littlegia...Information.pdf

In terms of efficiency these stats are way overblown......The manual for a Nazel 2b (a 250#)states it's forging capacity as being able to forge 3''sq efficiently..........

[kubiack]

I’m not going to disagree with you that it would be inefficient to work that large of stock with either hammer. I would assume that these would be the upper limits and you would not want to forge anything that large with them if you did not have to. I do think seeing what the manufacture considers rated capacity can give you a better idea of what you can actually use them for, cut it by a 1/3 to a ½ and you should be pretty safe.

A lot of people do not have the time, money, and space to set up a 250 pound hammer but a 50# LG sitting on timbers could give just about anyone the capacity to work 1.5” inch and larger on rare occasion.

[macbruce]

A lot of people do not have the time, money, and space to set up a 250 pound hammer but a 50# LG sitting on timbers could give just about anyone the capacity to work 1.5” inch and larger on rare occasion.

Agreed..... :)

[ciladog]

There is always one consideration that is missing form these discussions about hammer ability to forge when they come up. That is die size.
If you put narrow fullering dies on a 50# LG it may very well be able to forge down 3” stock. Put on some flat 2-1/4 X 4” dies and you would be lucky to forge down 2” stock.

It’s the force of the hammer divided by the points of contact that will increase or decrease the efficiency of the hammer.

[Madmike]

And remember that pounding on a 2" chunk of high-carb tool-steel isn't the same thing that pounding on a 2" rough iron chunk...