IronFist Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 Whats the better anti- borax to use for forge welding? I'm just learning to forge weld and I want to buy a can. My full time smithing job went right in the can yesterday:mad: and I can't remember the name of the one I used at work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Hicks Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 Im just learning to forge weld ,welding mild steel. I use 20 Mule Team Borax Soap from the store. I heard some say dont use soap and some swear by it. What is anti- borax? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted March 17, 2007 Share Posted March 17, 2007 20 mule team borax is not soap. There is a hand cleaner called Boraxo that has soap and borax in it, that is what everyone is referring to when they say don't use soap. 20 mule team is pure borax and is good flux material, it's all I ever use. Woody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Barter Posted March 17, 2007 Share Posted March 17, 2007 i agree with woody. 20 mule team borax is fine stuff for use as flux. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skunkriv Posted March 17, 2007 Share Posted March 17, 2007 Anti-Borax used to be a company that manufactured fluxes. Don't know the entire timeline but over the years most or all of the name brand fluxes have come to be owned by one company Superior Flux & MFG. Co. For a beginner I would recommend EZ Weld, or perhaps their Stableweld (which I have never seen but sounds interesting). I use EZ weld for some things, borax for others and some stuff called Black Magic (made by a blacksmith) for others. Boraxo is a soap. 20 Mule team borax is not a soap but a water conditioner. It was used as a laundry aid, increasing the effectiveness of soap in hard water when soap was used to wash clothes. Its use for this purpose has largely become obsolete with the introduction of detergents (as opposed to soap) for laundry products (many of which contains some borax). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torin Posted March 17, 2007 Share Posted March 17, 2007 I still find 20 Mule Team borax in grocery stores and some hardware stores. Works great. I don't even bother melting down to the anhydrous state. Yeah it foams a bit, but not for long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Barter Posted March 17, 2007 Share Posted March 17, 2007 Right on, Torin. Any moisture that's in the borax boils off quick enough in the old coal fire. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFist Posted March 17, 2007 Author Share Posted March 17, 2007 Thanks everyone for your responses. This helps out alot. I never realized that 20 mule team brand could be used. I have a gas forge, will this hinder the moisture evaporation as Torin and Rick stated? I adjusted my forge( previous posting) and it gets to a good heat for welding now. Skunkriv- thanks for the link to Superior. I couldn't remember the manuf. names at all. Thanks again everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFist Posted March 17, 2007 Author Share Posted March 17, 2007 I've also read of adding metal shavings/ filings to the weld to assist in the bond. Is this true? Does anyone use this procedure with any luck? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skunkriv Posted March 17, 2007 Share Posted March 17, 2007 EZ Weld contains iron shavings. This can help in tacking the weld. This is also why I don't use it on some welds because all those filings can be difficult to blend in and leaves unsightly boogers. You wouldn't want to use it at all for knives, borax is the thing for that. I still use EZ for most things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Barter Posted March 17, 2007 Share Posted March 17, 2007 IronFist, I think your gasser will be plenty hot enough to evaporate a little moisture from the flux, don't you? I have seen EZ - weld used, but in all I've seen and read one thing is clear: If the pieces aren't clean and at the right temperature, it don't matter what you use, you won't be able to weld 'em. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strix Varia Posted March 17, 2007 Share Posted March 17, 2007 be ware when yu use that fuxn your gas forge,...it's hard on the floor.i generaly use a block i made from castable refractoryto protect my forge floor.Your right on about steel fileings added to borax,..thats what i often use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dutchmancreek Posted March 17, 2007 Share Posted March 17, 2007 I use both borax and EZ Weld for different things. The EZ`Weld has filings that keep the joint from slipping but can leave a rough surface after the weld. Generally, I think plain 20 Mule Team Borax does as well as anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torin Posted March 17, 2007 Share Posted March 17, 2007 I use a sacrifical chunck of high-alumina kiln shelving. I use this for my floor as well. Borax will eat away at it over time, but it will stand up a lot better than most refractory. After about 100 hours of forge time, I still haven't gotten to the point it needs to be replaced. These are what I'm talking about:Bailey Ceramic Supply - Kiln Supplies - Cone 11 Shelves & Posts Or:Spectrum High Alumina Cone 11 Kiln Shelves They can be cut with a wet tile saw to fit in your forge. A single piece is usually enough to get 2 or 3 pieces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted March 17, 2007 Share Posted March 17, 2007 when using fluxes other than borax, get a material safety data sheet (MSDS) and read it. Some fluxes contain Fluorite which when heated gives off very toxic even deadly fumes. As for a flux that is concocted by a blacksmith I would want to know exactly what was in it before I used it. You can mess up a weld every day and live with it but you can only mess up your lungs once and you can't live with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted March 17, 2007 Share Posted March 17, 2007 When I was learning forge welding we used Anti-borax, and the toxicity was one of the reasons I now use plain ol' 20 Mule Team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFist Posted March 17, 2007 Author Share Posted March 17, 2007 Man, you guys are great!! All this info is fantastic. Keep it coming and THANK YOU!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Turner Posted March 17, 2007 Share Posted March 17, 2007 I use my gasser for making pattern welded billets for knives and other stuff and all I use is 20 mule team. Anything else that needs welding I do in my coal/coke forge, depends on the a lot of times I may not even use flux, but of course this takes a lot of practice and some skill. If you want some anhydrous borax you can you can give Kelly Cupples a shout he is a steel supplier for knife makers. You can reach him here octihunter@charter.net or can give him a call at 509-949-5231 and for those that are knife makers or need high carbon steels hey has some of the best prices and orders over $50 he ships free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 22, 2007 Share Posted March 22, 2007 I started using a mixture of 4 Pts. Borax and 1 Pt. Boric acid a while back and like it a lot better than straight borax. It's more aggressive and still not noxious. You can find boric acid in most pharmacies or in the bug killin section of the super market under the name "RoachPruf." If you want to forge weld SS you start getting into the toxic flux additives like Sal Amoniak(sp?) and other flouride compounds. It takes something pretty serious to remove chrome oxide from SS. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted March 22, 2007 Share Posted March 22, 2007 More options: Along with borx and E Z weld you can find Sure Weld and Cecils Swans flux at farrier supplies. I have used all and this is what has worked for me. Swans is about the easiest to learn to forge weld with. It just works great. It is also the most costly of the bunch. Get a container and use it until you get things going your way. Sure Weld or E Z weld seem alike to me and are next on the list. Borax is the last to use. It seems to me to have a narrower working ragnge of temerature. There is only a narrow heat range that it is best at. If you overheat a bit it will burn and crust and the only way I have saved a weld like that is to cool and grind surfaces and begin once more. Use every advantage you can to learn this,,later it will seems like it should have never given you a problem. If you weld something everyday and all is well use the borax and smile Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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