Introduction and Question

[Brad_VIIVI]

Greetings,

I'm new to the forum and glad to have found it, it seems like a valuable resource. I apologize if this question has already been answered and covered, being new to Blacksmithing and the forum, my skills in neither are up to par.

My question revolves around a concern, I have been reading and stumbled across the issue of metal poisoning and even deaths related to selecting the wrong metals, being new, if were being honest wouldnt know the difference if they were labeled.

I was hoping to get some of the more experienced folks on here to share what exactly are the safest metals to work with and how to know what im looking for.

I know this is a path i want to walk down and am fully committed to learning the craft, but safety first is prolly a good thing,

Thank you in advance, and many thanx for the site.


Brad

[jmccustomknives]

The biggest threat of poisining for a 'smith is from galvinized steel. We all run accross it and sometimes are tempted to use it. The zinc is toxic and builds up in the body and will make you sick and can kill you. The second is carbon monoxide from your forge. Always work in a well ventalated area and if you are using green coal then you've got other toxins in the smoke. Always wear protective clothing, gloves and safety glasses. Things fly around and will put out an eye (most of us only have two), sharp objects can cut off an apendage or cause infection. Keep burn ointment, cause you will be burnt. Be wary of old fire bricks, these also can contain toxic heavy metals. Be smart and enjoy your new hobbie.

[LDW]

Brad I did a search and found this. http://www.anvilfire.com/iForge/tutor.php?lesson=safety3/demo

[Brad_VIIVI]

Wow, thank you both for such a quick reply, i appreciate it. 10-4 on the ventilation and safety gear. I have chosen to go with a propane forge, for me it will keep things simple and clean. I live in a very dry environment and fire containment is a large issue for me, that mixed with me being new, propane forge made some sense at this stage.

Thank you for the article Sir, that is actually the very one i read to get me asking. I dont know of the man in the article, but what i can tell is he was and is very respected in the craft, and that he had a whole lot more experience and knowledge than i do, and prolly more than i ever will. Which is alarming to me, if a man of that level could make a boo boo, i need to get this right from the start.

I will be buying outright all the metal i use for quite sometime, until i am certain what im dealing with and my abilities to recognize it. Having said that, when walking in to steel supply here in town, is there particular metals i can outright ask for and just not have to worry about it ?

is there a stamp or way of recognizing these metals to be truly what another may say it is ?

One i get to heating things up and hammering, and got a vague feel for things, id like to basically start out making my tongs and fiddle with some knives (simply because im familiar with what the end product should be) and over time and practice build up to some more technical projects ( as if making tongs and knives werent going to be technical enough) haha

Again, i really do appreciate your help, thank you. The quicker i get this concern put to bed, the quicker i can get on to getting out there and making it happen ...putting on the burn ointment that is ;)

[Ramsberg]

Can't believe that was seven years ago, seems like it was yesterday.

As a note, it wasn't the pipe that was dangerous, it was the coating on it.

Most all heavy metal poisining comes from zink or paint coatings being ground or burned off of the bit of metal. One breaths in the fumes and it is absorbed via the lungs, the same things occurs when welding without proper ventilation.

Some intense alloys are dangerous, but they are not that common.

If you keep to mild steel, which is a low carbon steel with few alloy metals and other standard steels then you will be OK.

Caleb Ramsby

[Ramsberg]

We must have been posting at the same time.

There are very few steels that can poison the smith. Since it sounds like you will be buying from a metal supplier, then ask them for the MSDS. Material Safety Data Sheet. These sheets indicate the potential for danger that the material represents.

When making knives, a large proportion of the work will be grinding the blade. Ventilating the grinder(s) is just as, if not more important then the forge.

Also, don't be fooled into thinking that just because your forge is burning propane that it is magically producing a clean exhaust. To be honest, a well build and designed coal or charcoal forge has 99% of the exhaust leaving up the flue, so virtually none of the exhaust gases are placed into the shops air. Contrastly, 99% of the small blacksmith gas forges I have seen have NO flue for the exhaust and they just exhaust into the shop or are placed outside. I don't know how many people would agree with me here, but I believe that shops with coal forges have cleaner air then shops with gas forges.

You can also look up the MSDS for a steel online.

Best of luck.

Caleb Ramsby

[pkrankow]

"If it don't rust don't trust"

Rust means there is no, or minimal coating of any kind on the steel.

Do you know what stove pipe looks like with a crystal feather pattern? That is electroplate galvanized. Zinc coated. A lot of fasteners are treated this way

How about hot dip roofing nails? That is hot dip galvanized. Also zinc coated. Exterior grade fasteners are often hot dipped, just visit the hardware aisle of your local big box.

You know those pretty colored grade 5 and grade 8 bolts at the store? If the coating is smooth and not greasy and does not wipe off that is mechanical galvanized, also zinc coated. If the coating is powdery and greasy, and transfers some there is likely some cadmium in the mechanical plated coating (cadmium is bad for us). The color is just dye, and can be any color under the sun.

Zinc is the least of your worries, it is easy to recognize, easy to remove (acid pickle, I like vinegar overnight) and very small quantities are part of your diet, but breathing zinc fumes is very bad.

Cadmium is horrible stuff, avoid it. Chrome is not too good either, you get some funky compounds (hexavalent chrome, among other stuff) when you heat or weld on it. There is also lead and many other "heavy metals"

Many coatings are on the steel for rust prevention. Most coatings of this nature can be stripped with acid. You can check an electronegativity chart for information on which will strip first, the coating or the iron. There are also paints, which often have funky ingredients. Some paints are truly horrible and most paint should not be simply burned away, but instead stripped chemically or mechanically.

If you ever put a piece of mystery metal in the fire and the metal turns an unexpected color, the fire changes color, or the metal and fire start smoking pull it out and/or vacate the area.

A lot of car parts are relatively safe to learn with. Coil and leaf springs are good tool steel for our purposes. Rusty metal that is solid under the rust is good, any of these coatings should have been removed already by that point. Internal engine parts (except valves, some are sodium filled) and engine fasteners are also good material.

Back to "If it don't rust don't trust" but even that isn't foolproof.

Phil

[Frank Turley]

As for 'non ferrocious' metals, copper cooking vessels have a tin coated interior for safe using. Pewter had a bad reputation in the early days, because plates and mugs were made of pewter with a large lead content. Nowadays, Pewter is termed 'Britannia metal' and has no lead, so it is safe to use.

[Brad_VIIVI]

Thank you all very much, you have given a lot of great information and even a little rhyme to get started. There is allot of information in each of your post and i will be studying this thread and researching each aspect out to gain a proper understanding, thank you for your time and patience. i will have to look into gas ventilation, and models that have the best chance of having a hood set up. My rational was to try and keep sparks from the fire etc from burning down the town ha.

Again, thank you for your time and willingness to share, my only experience with Blacksmiths has been this thread, and it certainly looks like a great group of guys who are open and willing to share.

Got some research to do !



Brad

[Ted T]

Sucker Rod Poison WARNING

FYI - Sucker Rod: A steel rod that is used to make up the mechanical assembly between the surface and down-hole components of a rod pumping system. Sucker rods are 25 to 30 ft [7 to 9 m] long and threaded at each end to enable the down-hole components to be run and retrieved easily.
Sucker Rod is mostly available in or near Oil Field towns.

Here is some information that you may want to ponder should you choose to use “sucker Rod” for forging.
To use Sucker Rod as a material to forge with, sounds like a good idea.
I use it myself, and have done for many years.
But; a person needs to be informed about the possible dangers involved with the purchase and use of some contaminated Sucker Rod.

This post is just a heads up for someone who may be interested in protecting themselves from the simple (but dangerous) world of the un-informed.

Buying and then using some bad (contaminated) sucker rod by an un-informed person may lead to some bad and dangerous outcomes, and then have no idea of what is going on with them.

Most people I have talked to over the years have said this issue is not a real problem. And that is only because they have not run into the problem.
But it could be a big problem if you accidently got some contaminated rod.

If one person buys some contaminated rod is harmed by it, it is a blacksmithing community issue!

Here are some extracted comments that were made by some members quite some time ago about this issue that should make you at least aware of the potential.
Be wise and study up on this yourself if this is something you are going to use.

Anyone wanna die?

Oil rods/casing out of a h2s well will kill ya,,, is up to you but.....be warey "rotten egg" is not good = less than .001 in a 8 hr. period but when ua heats it turns to sulfer dioxide = deadly please don’t mess w/ rods-casin that came from a sour well!. sorry (by) Jimmy Seal
- - - - - - - - - -
Author unknown:
Naturally Occurring Radioactive Materials- which have been known to contaminate oil field steel to the point that it is thought too dangerous to be set to scrap for re-melt.
Not a big issue but worth thinking about if you happen on a pile that appears abandoned.
In the last little while most scrap processers have been required to certify that the level of radioactivity is below a certain level.

I don't know the details of the NORM levels and only know about it from the papers reporting of law suits and people being sent to jail.
- - - - - - - - - -
PLEASE Just be wise when you buy it and use it.
Best of SAFE forging to you Sir!
Old Worrysome Grandma Ted Throckmorton

[Frosty]

Galvanizing isn't as dangerous as it's reputation makes it sound, think of it as the pitbull of not safe metals to put in your forge. It isn't heavy metal poisoning, it's an overdose of a metabolized necessary mineral/metal. Use Zicam when you're catching a cold? Zinc oxide as is calamine lotion, etc.

Don't take me wrong, I am NOT saying it's safe to breath zinc oxide smoke, it can be very VERY bad for you and lethal if you're allergic or sensitive to it. Stay out of the smoke and better yet, learn to recognize galvy and avoid using it for stock.

Other commonly available dangerous metals are cadmium plated steels commonly seen as gold colored fasteners, nuts, bolts, etc. This stuff is really toxic and serious cancer causing bad news. Don't forge it, don't grind it, don't weld it.

The other common one I'm familiar with is chrome. Hexavalent chrome is very toxic and a heavy metal so it will NOT be expelled from your body before it does damage like cause cancer or rot your liver, kidnies, etc. Leave it on your bumpers and trim where it belongs.

If you buy new stock you'll be fine. Welcome to the addiction, nothing stirs the soul like beating hot steel into submission. <wink>

Frosty The Lucky.

[Daniel.85]

http://www.onlinemetals.com/

[ThomasPowers]

When you go to buy metal you will want to ask for hot rolled mild steel as that's the cheapest and generally what most stuff is smithed from. (knives and tooling is different and not usually starter projects!)

Hot rolled has dark mill scale on it unless it has been pickled and oiled---but that drives up the price and so since you are going to stick it in a forge and get more scale on it is usually not worth it.

Cold rolled usually comes P&I and "shiny" and at a premium cost. Since the work hardening that cold rolled has disappears the first time it's up to temp in the forge and the shiny surface scales over paying extra for it is a waste! (However certain shapes/sizes can only be easily found in CR and so we do what we must)

DON'T buy steel at a big box store like Home Despot! They will often charge almost as much for 4' of steel as a steel dealer will charge for 20'!

So find a steel dealer---my local dealer is an old timey Windmill repair and installation company---2 miles from my shop and 1/2 to 1/3 cheaper than the lumber yard in town. They will piggyback an order too as they get a larger discount the more they buy and so are happy to help.

As mentioned steel usually comes in 20' sticks and is usually sold that way. Cuts are generally charged for---I bring a 30" hacksaw and do my own in the parking lot as I'm cheap (and disreputable looking too!)

If you do a lot of something try to cut your materials in multiples of the stock length needed---instead of two 10 footers you might do better with an 8 and 12 footer if your common item takes 4'.

Ask about under sized or rusty metal---as a smith we are not generally overly concerned if our 20'er is actually 19' *iff* the price break covers that missing foot and then some! Also rust disappears in the forge and even heavily pitted metal can be used for decorative effect!

There was an ornamental iron place near where I used to live that would *give* me off cuts (drops); with high prices nowadays you might ask if they would sell you at scrap price---making some trinkets to give to the office staff can work wonders!

Usually anything rusty is forge fodder. (now some of the leaded free machining steels are not good to forge but as they are red short you will not be able to forge them.)

[Brad_VIIVI]

Thank you guys again, excellent information and links, certainly clearing the fog away. Just wanted to chime in for those who have contributed last and say thank you again, much appreciated and i will certainly pay it forward as i grow.

[son_of_bluegrass]

If you'll post a general location (city, state, country) there may be someone around the corner willing to help you. (You can put it in your profile.) Also there may be a blacksmithing group in your neck of the woods, search for ABANA (assuming you are in N. America, Artist Blacksmith Ass. of N. America) then look under affiliates for your state.

Search the forum for key words of specific questions.

Read books. There are a number of good ones out there. "Plain and Ornamental Forging" (can't remember the authors spelling) was written as a text book. "The New Edge of the Anvil" by Andrews I think and "Blacksmith Primer" (think that is the correct title) by ? (I should know...). If you don't want or can't afford to buy, check your library. If they don't have it you may be able to read it through Inter-Library Loan (ILL).

If all else fails, feel free to ask.

ron

[small potatoes]

One other coating to be aware of is zinc chromate. It has a yellow-green flat primer look to it. Great for rust inhibiting, but quite nasty to breathe, or ingest.