wayne1967 Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Picked up a little champion blower forge and was wondering if most people clay the bottom of them? Heard it will keep it from burning out but then again heard It causes moistuer to hold between the pan and the clay causeing it to rust out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 No. Any refactory will just break up and get in your fire. You don't need it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drewed Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 I clay my pans. I used chunks of broken up firebricks and refactory mortor in my main forge, and a sand mortor mix i the travel forge. I did this mainly to make a "fire pot" in the travel forge. You can also use cheap kitty litter ( mostly clay ) and a small amount of water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 A lot of rivet forges were meant to be clayed. The thin cast iron or sheet metal will burn out or crack very quickly if you don't, and if you are using the forge regularly it won't build up moisture. It is good to protect the forge from the elements though. A recipe that has been recommended: 1 part Portland 3 parts sand optional 1/2 part clay Mix the dry ingredients, then add just enough water to pack hard, yet break when you pinch a ball of it. Form a bowl around the tue. Mix it and clay it today, use it tomorrow. Start with a small fire and build to a normal fire (I wasn't given much direction on this either). You can get the ingredients at your local big box, and if you get broken bags it may only cost a couple $, if you have to buy full bags it still won't cost much. This will eventually start to break up and mix in the fire, when that starts to be a problem break it all out and redo it. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Phil is right, but again it is not required. I have done the same thing with my old sheet metal rivet forge by using the coal fines, wetted down to form the fire box when forging. It didn't have caly in it when I got it and I've had it for 40 years and still don't use it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Phil is right, but again it is not required. I have done the same thing with my old sheet metal rivet forge by using the coal fines, wetted down to form the fire box when forging. It didn't have caly in it when I got it and I've had it for 40 years and still don't use it. You are still taking measures to protect the pan from heat, which is the important part. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne1967 Posted March 8, 2012 Author Share Posted March 8, 2012 Ok.. what's a rivet forge? Sorry new to this. Mine looks cast. Has a No.104 on bottom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Ok.. what's a rivet forge? Sorry new to this. Mine looks cast. Has a No.104 on bottom. Rivet forges were small portable and usually round forges used in the construction of buildings and other structures to heat up the rivets that held the iron frame of the building together. Their design and intent was to heat rivets thus the difficulty in heating anything much larger than a large rivet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne1967 Posted March 8, 2012 Author Share Posted March 8, 2012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matto Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 wayne your forge looks alot bigger than a riveters forge more like a early railroad forge. as was said earlier a riveters forge, portable forge or farriers forge are about 18 inches in diameter. they come in cast iron and stamped sheet metal with either a hand pump, crank, ratchet, or foot operated blower ( that is all i have seen). they are very portable hence the reason they were used to heat the rivets on all levels of the empire state building and why some traveling fariers used them. as for clay in thhem each to there own, you don't need it, but also won't hurt it. another way to make a deeper or longer fire pot is to use fire brick. i use three in my riveters forge to help control the fire. if i want a longer fire i take one out and use the other two to make a long channel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Make a bowl that is about 8 inches in diameter (think mixing bowl, not cone). The existing slots in the side should be about 3 or 4 inches above the tue already, so just keep that level for the whole pan. The outer part of the grate (where the bolt holes are) can have clay on it. The test is 1) being able to build a deep fire and 2) being able to remove clinker easily without taking the grate out with the clinker. You should be in great shape then. Very nice looking forge. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne1967 Posted March 8, 2012 Author Share Posted March 8, 2012 Thanks everyone. I googled it up and saw it originally had a half hood on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Seelye Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Thanks everyone. I googled it up and saw it originally had a half hood on it. I use mine for outside demos, and I have a hood and a short pipe. This keeps all the smoke well away from me, and sends it up before it spreads out. I don't have clay in mine anymore for the same reason Phil K was talking about, I only use it for demos, and it gets moisture for the long periods I don't use it. If it was my main forge, I would have something in the bottom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drewed Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 If you dont want to "bowl" your forge with clay, you should at least fill the bottom in so your tuyer is flush. It looks like it is sticking up a bit. Nice looking forge... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Not that is NOT a large forge; in fact may be smaller than some of the round ones. Don't let the shape throw you off! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridgewayforge Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 I'd follow the directions on the forge. It appears to say "clay forge before use" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne1967 Posted March 8, 2012 Author Share Posted March 8, 2012 Yes it does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 So you have an idea of how the wet fines work: Using hardware cloth (large screening) or an ash sifter, sift out the fines from your coal and put into a bucket. Sprinkle with water until wet. You don't want a soup, but more like mortar. The longer it sits the better. I used to do this the night before. Take a shovel (coal shovels work best) and scoop up the wet fines and place on the forge. You don't want this running with water. You can use a 4" x 4" board about 12" long and stand this up over your grate. Hold in place as you pack the wet coal around this and use a hammer or the back of a shovel to pack it tight around the wood. Pile it up about 4" to 5" high all around the wood. Make it like a hill around the wood. Let it set for about 15 minutes to allow any excess water to drain off. Take the shovel and using it up and down cut open the front of this mound to the same width of the wood. That will be your front door. Carefully wiggle the wood and raise it straight up carefull to not to bust up the coal. Your fire is built in the area left by the wood. You don't touch this coal at all through out the day unless you need a long heat in something and then you cut out a back door like you did the front. As you burn the sides will coke up into a big solid piece of coke. Great for starting your next fire. It also keeps your fire contained and protects your forge. I hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SReynolds Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 I don't clay, rather I build a new grate from 1/4" mild steel. Currently working on my second rivet forge. Incedently, I recently picked up a book with 600+ (Things???) you can construct in a 401 rivet forge. I won't live long enough to try them all!!! Much more than a simple rivet!! Wish I could recall the name of book. "The Complete Modern Blacksmith" I belive it is....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
srwimmer Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 I don't have much experience at this, but I was told by an older blacksmith, that I needed to protect the cast iron pan from getting to hot and cracking. I mixed - 1 part portland cement with 3 part sand, added a little water to make it into a paste. I place a 6" stove pipe over the tue to protect the teu from the mixture and then I coated the bottom of the pan with about 1 to 1.5 inches of the mix. The mix may be a little bit thick, so next time I need to line the pan, i'll use less mixture in the pan. I have a little Champion Farm forge that I lined this way and it turned out real nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Cast iron pans are susceptible to cracking if you wet your coal or fire while it's hot. Cast iron does NOT like rapid uneven cooling. Trapping water under the liner can be a problem but you can paint it with a phosphoric acid primer like Ospho and it'll be good for long long time. There are lots of clay mixes that'll work well, the less portland cement you use the better as portland hydrates as it sets, it doesn't dry. Hydrating means it's absorbing water and setting chemically so heating it much over 210f can cause it to spall. The general mix I like is 1pt fire clay to 3-4 pts. sand to 1/2 pt portland cement or less. In this mix the cement glues it together till the clay fires but there's enough sand it can't damage the liner if it spalls. Only add enough moisture to let it ram solid or it'll shrink check as it dries. (the clay not the cement) Decide what shape duck's nest you want, this is the depression over the air grate referred to in earlier posts, a salad bowl works nicely if not too large. Ram the mix in with a mallet or similar till it bounces and burnish it with a piece of coarse cloth like burlap or canvas. Burnishing the liner makes it smooth, think short polish and helps keep things from sticking to it or catching on it. Let it dry thoroughly if you have to hang a light bulb near it. Fire it gently, small fire first, allow it to cool and light a little larger fire for a longer time and let it cool. Lastly let it rip and get good and hot, A double layer of charcoal briquettes and forced draft is recommended for furnace liners made this way. Why you let it cool between firings I don't know but that's what I read back when and it's worked well for me. It's not a critical thing folk use clay out of the garden, river bank or just dirt and ram it in. you may have to replace it often but that the hey, it'd dirt cheap. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SReynolds Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Another thing to do is to use a small brake drum or a rotor as the "fire pot" and "liner" for a small rivet forge. You'd simply set the rotor hole ober the air holes and you'd have a fire pot. The green cola can then fill the remaining area around the rotor and keep the fire within the rotor. Find a rotor of the size you'd need. Simple!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 ... There are lots of clay mixes that'll work well, the less portland cement you use the better as portland hydrates as it sets, it doesn't dry. Hydrating means it's absorbing water and setting chemically so heating it much over 210f can cause it to spall. ... Frosty The Lucky. I did some looking on this last year. While if you gently heat it to a low heat you will have a likely spalling problem as the Portland gives up its water molecules, but if you heat it higher the Portland plays nice with the quartz in the sand and helps the sand vitrify which will not disintegrate. That said, there are better solutions that are both similarly priced and much more expensive. The sand/Portland mix is a pretty good choice still. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne1967 Posted March 16, 2012 Author Share Posted March 16, 2012 That's some neat gearing on that forge. Never seen one like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bentiron1946 Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 I build a few forges over the years and lined them with a mix similar to Frosty's and it works well and lasts a long time. I used to build my forges out of 1/8" thick sheet steel and then line them with our clay like soil or get fancy and use a fire clay, sand, Portland cement mix which would last a whole lot longer. After a slow first firing and subsequent hot fires it would get a glass like finish on it around the duck and eventually develop some cracks radiating away from it. If they sit out in the weather yes you will get water under the pan but there aren't too many of us that don't have the sense to cover up our equipment when it rains, right? We're not some of the old time construction workers that were working on bridges and highrises that just didn't think much of leaving these small forges out in the open, we know better now with the few that survive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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