Locket77 Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 Hi everyone, This is my first ever post, I hope someone can offer advice, you seem to be a bunch who know most of what there is to know and are generous about sharing your knowledge. I want to make some proper, welded, butterfly hinges for a restoration job. I'm still a little bit hit and miss with my welding and have very little experience working with thin stock (1/8"), so thought I'd ask if anyone has any tips? Is it more tricky than welding larger stock, my instinct says yes, but I'm trying to stay positive... I'll be using a coke fire and just regular mild steel, with borax for flux. Any hints would be much appreciated, I'm trying to convince myself it'll be a FUN CHALLENGE and a useful addition to my skill portfolio, but I can't help secretly anticipating frustration and disappointment. So, what are your secrets? Also, once I've mastered those...cockshead hinges: presumably forged from straight bar and not just cut out from sheet, right? Thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Roy Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 I guess I'm not a purist. I would apply my MIG welder to the job if it needs welding. Saying I am hit or miss with forge welding would be very generous to myself; actually mostly miss. Are you sure you need to weld these hinges? What weight will they carry? How big...etc.? Bringing thin metal to welding heat brings you close to the point where things sparkle and disappear unless you are very careful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 What welding? Cockshead hinges don't need welding, their barrels are turned and fitted to each other, pins fitted and peened over Made from sheet steel usually Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locket77 Posted February 27, 2012 Author Share Posted February 27, 2012 I don't mean to weld the cockshead hinges if they shouldn't be, but the butterfly ones. The reason I need to weld them and in the fire is that they're replacements for originals from a really old house, and they would have been welded, I think. I know they'd probably be strong enough just rolled, and I generally do that for small hinges, but the customer has specified he wants them welded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Turley Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 I watched Peter Ross fold 1/8" thick steel in half retaining a 1/4" pin in the middle. He forge welded the doubled plates together while the pin was in!. He use careful blows on the plates without hitting the pin. Then he quenched and clamped the hinge leaf in the vise. He drove the pin out with hammer blows and a pin punch. That is something I have not tried. I have made butterfly (dovetail) hinges out of 1/8" stock by doing the forge weld as with a strap hinge. The weld is done with half face blows on the far radiused, anvil edge. The barrel is overhanging the edge and you're hitting the back side of the hinge It is difficult to describe the setup without photos or diagrams. I learned how by seeing the text and diagram, pages 67-68, in "Elementary Forge Practice" by Robert H. Harcourt. The book can be viewed on Google; More; Books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dablacksmith Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 ive done these and they arnt too tough ... was shown how by Pieter Ross many years ago the weld dosnt need to be all the way to the eye to look good as long as you get the edges to weld it works fine .. its not too tough but you have to move fast...good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doc Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Most period butterfly or dovetail hinges were forge from sheet stock about 14ga. not 1/8". The description Frank gave of how Peter does it is accurate.Often times period pieces were forged off strip stock which is evidenced by the chamfer on the end opposite the barrel of the hinge having been formed by a hardy cut.The chamfers along the edges with their stop checks in comparison were filed. The strip is folded around the pin back on itself and welded.Then is cross piened to broaden its width creating the dovetail shape and then clipped off on the hardy to again start another.The blade of the hinge is held in the vise and the pin driven out. While cross piening care must be taken to not get too close to the barrel of the hinge or it will stretched into a curve making it both difficult to get the pin out and to fit the joint properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLMartin Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Doc is spot on. Ive made a hand full of these. I make the pins out of 1/4" round. I make them very quickly and also make the hinges pretty quick. I try not to fuss over them much, its easier to make another one then to try and fix one that has gone bad. I have a few in the scrap pile that have pins welded in. No worry's though just cut off the stock and make another one. Time cost more than the material does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locket77 Posted February 28, 2012 Author Share Posted February 28, 2012 Thanks everyone, that's fired me up to have a proper go. Useful advice, and great book link, I've not seen that before. If you never hear back from me assume I'm weeping in a corner of the shop after 50 failed attempts, but hopefully I will be able to report success... Thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Are you using real wrought iron like *old* ones? Real wrought iron can be easier to weld in thin section than mild as it deals with high heat better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 I have been welding hinges in 3mm after watching a Peter Ross DVD. having the pin in to form a heat sink seems to be the secret - and having the eye over the edge of the anvil so you do not forge it if you miss hit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locket77 Posted March 4, 2012 Author Share Posted March 4, 2012 I just tried uploading a photo of my efforts, but I can't seem to get it to work just now. I'll have to have another go. But, after a few attempts I got a result I was pretty happy with, though practice will further refine it. So thanks for all your contributions, I was really grateful you took the time to respond. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan P. Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 One of the secrets to doing this sort of weld right is getting a nice thin scarf. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric sprado Posted April 9, 2012 Share Posted April 9, 2012 Frank: I never knew about the Google "books" feature. THANKS!!!! There are a zillion free books on there to look at!!! Eric S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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