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Need opinion on forge purchase


shawnc

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I've just joined the forum and have been reading and learning a lot. I've been interested in blacksmithing for a long time but have never taken the plunge. I have welders and oxy/acetylene torches and I always enjoy metal work, so I'm just testing the waters to see if I'll have the time and interest to pursue blacksmith work (just for a hobby). I recently acquired an old 150 pound or so Vulcan anvil (I know not the best brand, and this one does have some face chips, but I think it has decent rebound and should be serviceable).

Anyway, I've been watching out for a forge locally but they don't seem to come up often. I've found one for sale I would like an opinion on if so. It's a Champion #40, and I've attached some pictures. The guy says the blower operates smoothly and the forge is solid.

Thanks in advance; any opinions or advice as well as a value estimate would be welcome.

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Thanks, I'll check on the ash dump. He's asking $450. Does that sound high? I've seen them listed higher and lower than that, but I'm not sure if there's anything brand-wise, etc. which might affect the value. I also wonder if starting out if I should just build a simple forge.

I've also considered either building or buying a gas-fired forge. I've read about the pros and cons of that, and I like the traditional coal method, but I'm sure gas would be much cleaner and simpler. I have natural gas available in my shop, so I would probably go that route. Looks like the gas forges don't get as hot, so that might be an issue I guess.

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My forge is built out of 1" tubing legs, 1/8" plate, some bed frame angle iron, and a brake drum. Given, I've decided through use that the firepot is definitely not deep enough, but it's worked with few other complaints for about a year of part-time forging. With access to a welder, and if you're concerned about funds, fabricating one might be a better option (the welding practice was the kicker for me, I still need a lot of it!)

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My bellows were built for nothing as well (scrap and giveaways from the local lumberyard and auto shop), and they perform pretty well, though I do plan on building a proper set of great bellows when I find the time. I don't have a picture, but I followed these plans to some degree: http://cd3wd.com/cd3...ths_bellows.pdf .

Tangentially, I must say that after looking at that picture, I had almost forgotten that I started with a trolley rail anvil and a craftsman bench vise as my ENTIRE setup. I even made functional items with that! Still beats whacking at metal with a rock, on top of a bigger rock...

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ok a few questions are in order ,,, where do you live ? forge prices vary from place to place .. what is your fabrication skill level? and last but not least can you afford it? it does sound high to me but if you can afford it it is a Quick way to aquire a good forge ... can you make one ... sure! but how much is your time worth...

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I've just updated my profile to include my location, but I'm in NE Oklahoma. There appears to be a blacksmith association locally, so I'll probably join eventually. Coal is available to members only, and the price they show is $140/ton but I think I would have to pick it up from Douglas, OK. I'm not familiar with that town, but it appears to be a couple of hours away. But a ton would probably last me for a long, long time, so I think the cost would be minimal.

I can fabricate no problem. I have a nice mig welder, an old stick welder, oxy/acetylene torches, grinders, etc. so I'm sure I could build one. But yes my time is my main limiter. I work a full-time job, raise 3 kids, have a small hobby farm (goats, chickens, ducks, geese, very large garden, etc.), and am continually remodeling my house. I'm not afraid of building or salvaging whatever, and if I were experienced with smithing I might lean toward building a forge. Since this one is sitting about 15 miles away, it's tempting to just get it, but I am frugal and hate throwing money away.

One of my bigger concerns is whether to focus on coal/charcoal, or maybe go with gas. Natural gas is pretty reasonable here and I have it available in my shop, not to mention it would be easier to use it indoors. Reading through the gas forge forum posts though, it looks like there is a lot of experimentation/trial and error, and I really don't want to make a career out of building the forge. Coal appeals more to me on a traditional level, but using it inside I would obviously have to deal with a hood/venting system. Would a plain old kitchen range hood work for ventilation? Seems easier than messing with a chimney. I live outside of the city limits and the neighbors are hundreds of feet away, so I don't think smoke would be a big issue.

I appreciate all the advice.

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Howdy from East TEXAS!! and welcome to IFI! First off, don't "eventually" join the blacksmith group, do it ASAP! You are in The Saltfork Craftsmen and Artist Blacksmith Assoc. area. A fantastic bunch of folks....even with myself as a member it is still good. As for the forge, if you have the coin buy it. You can always resale it later if you choose to make one of your own. If I was looking at it I would try to get the forge for less, take the green folding stuff with you when you go talk to the guy...that stuff seem to have better communication skills then us human folk. Saltfork has coal we sale to members so that won't be a prob for you. Also, check this site for the next meeting in your area; http://www.saltforkcraftsmen.org If you don't mind driving you can attend a meeting of Saltfork on most any given Sat of the month. We encourage newgies and this is a good way to get some excellent hands on help....also a good way to find that next tool you 'NEED'. BTW, my primary forge is very much like the one you show, I really enjoy it too.

As for the ventilation, check into building a side-draft. I have worked forges with both a side-draft and a hood and IMO the side-draft works best. I built mine from some 16ga. There are blueprints here one side-drafts or you could 'startpage' it http://www.startpage.com is a seach engine that does not track your movement.

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If you've already got Natural Gas in your shop, ... why would you even consider a Coal Forge ?

Even though I like my Coal Forges, ... this would be a "no brainer" for me.

A simple Gas Burner, and a dozen fire bricks, and you're in business.


But if you've got your heart set on a Coal Forge, the one in the pictures is a very decent outfit, ... and the price is not too far out of the ball park.

The good thing about prices, is that they can change .....


.

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Thanks for all the valuable information.

Thomas, it's good to know the Saltfork association is serious. I was hesitant to jump right in since I'm not sure how much time I'll have to devote to a long-term pursuit, but it wouldn't cost much to get hooked up. I'm sure the resource would be very valuable. What type of forges do you see most often here?

SmoothBore, maybe I shouldn't consider coal. I've never messed with it, so I'm not sure exactly what to expect. It sounds smoky and less convenient than gas, but logically I can see that an open coal pit would be more versatile than a little hole into the gas forge/oven. Coal seems like it would also be more controllable. Gas is attractive for the convenience, but I wasn't sure about the difficulty of getting to forging temperature. Looks like plenty of people have no big problems with that though. Some of the gas fire brick forges seem pretty flimsy (wouldn't the stacked ones just fall over if they got bumped?). But even though I might like the "traditional" coal process, I know I would use it more if I could just go out and fire it up without having to wait around to get everything started.

Stewart, that's what I would have assumed also, cost-wise. My main tractor is a 1963 Massey 35, and there's something to be said for the big old iron versus new flimsy plastic. The new Kubotas and Deeres look really nice though and have a lot more features than the old stuff, and it really boils down to getting the job done. But the new ones are built more cheaply than the old ones; I'm not sure how many will be around in 50 years.

I'll look more into some of the gas forge designs. I've not been too impressed yet with those I've seen so far, but I'll dig a little deeper.

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Shawnc
I am from northeast ok as well and i got interested in blacksmithing as well. I started out with a small brake drum forge and then when i started looking for a source of coal i found Saltfork. I live in muskogee ok and i assumed that there just couldnt be any blacksmiths near me but when i looked at the website i saw that a member was having a meeting here in town. so i got ahold of the member and the first thing he did was invite me to his shop. and i have never regreted it i have been a member now for a year and everyone i meet in the club is willing to help you learn it was a great investment for my 20 dollar member dues.

As far as your questions about the forges when i was studing up i read somewhere that natural gas is not prefered because it takes twice as much natural gas as it does propane and unless you have a commercial line you cannot get the pressure you need because residential lines are measured in water colums not psi
So i built a gas forge using propane and it works great it is clean and easy to use
But i am building a shop soon and i am already planning for a coal forge as well i like the forge you have pictured it should do you well if you decide to go that way and you can also get the club coal from another member in the skiatook area to
but ill tell you joining the club is a great investment i have learned so much from those guys and i enjoy every meeting i have gone to

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Aversna1,

Thanks for the info and suggestions. I live in Owasso so Skiatook is convenient (20 minutes away). From my brief research, I'm finding what you say about natural gas vs propane to be true. Looks like people struggle with the low pressure issue and usually have to add a blower which adds it's own complications. I found a good article at http://ronreil.abana.org/whyusegas.shtml which discusses coal vs. gas and his argument in favor of gas is persuasive. Still, if I could find a coal forge for $200 or so it would be tempting to try it anyway just to get into it quickly, but at $450-ish I'm not sure. Anyway, thanks again and I'll plan to contact Saltfork pretty soon.

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Ideally I would suggest taking a class or two and trying other peoples' forges to find out what you like and don't like about various types of forges and features. Many years ago I made the mistake of purchasing a stick welder before taking a class. That was a big mistake because I found out how a decent welder should work, and that box couldn't do a decent weld.

That said, it looks to be a decent solid forge from what can be seen in the photographs. If you have the money it is a good purchase. I doubt you will find a decent forge for $200 but anything is possible.

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$450 sounds like a pretty good price. I just bought a forge, rather than making my own, because I have so many projects, it seemed like building the forge kept getting pushed back behind the others. I had also saved up the money to buy an induction forge from Grant Sarver, but with his passing that was no longer an option. So I had the cash, but not the time.

Of course, I always feel envious when I see the forges other people make from scrap for cheap. I feel like I paid too much. But then, I've had the parts to build a forge for quite a while, but never got the time. So it was a question of spending or not doing. That's the decision you are in, right? You work full time, watch after a family, and have lots going on. If you have the money on hand, I'd say buy it, and get to forging. If money is really tight, then you should do what I didn't: set a plan in place to get started on building your forge bit by bit.

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Yes, that pretty much sums it up for me. I'm in the middle of a house remodel, spring's right around the corner and today I'll probably spend today tilling at least 5000 square feet of new garden area, wife would like to have a greenhouse/hoophouse built by next fall at the latest, need to build a new chicken tractor pretty soon, and of course I don't want to spend all of my home time outside away from the kids. My thoughts are that coal, while maybe slower or inferior to propane in some ways, is at least a quick way to get started and then to decide if it's something worth pursuing. If so, then I would know more about what to expect from a gas forge. If not, I doubt it would be too hard to sell.

I'll keep you guys posted on which way I end up going.

Thanks.

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Considering that you can forge out of a hole in the ground; spending $450 on something you are not sure about seems a bit rich.

I started in OKc myself back in 1981, built a coal forge out of a drysink from an old farmhouse with plumbing parts for the tuyere and lined it with clay from the local creek. Took nearly a complete Saturday morning to do so! Don't know if not having a welder sped things up any...

Also working with coal is a learning experience in itself. Much easier to use real chunk charcoal to get started before you have to learn to keep a coal forge perking just right. (I have an apprentice that I started with propane and is now learning coal and it can be amusing for me but very frustrating for him to get work done in the coal forge.)

As to the new selling price of stuff: well that's not a good indication of the price of used stuff---otherwise I would never have owned any of the cars and trucks I have owned as they were always dirt cheap compared to the new price! (Funny think I own a passel of books that cost more used than they originally did new!)

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Thomas,

I completely agree with your comments, which is why I'm hesitant to spend the cash. Could probably negotiate down to $400 (apparently that's about what he has in it), but still...

Real forges don't seem to come up very often around here (there is a similar one for sale for $650), although I'm guessing it would be easier to locate one in the future if I joined up with the local Saltfork group. The guy selling it is a professional pipe welder and he has stated that the pan is in nearly perfect condition (no cracks, etc.) and that the blower works like new. Not wanting to be a tire-kicker, I haven't looked at it yet in person, but I'm planning to either tonight or tomorrow night.

I know I enjoy metalworking in general, and I know I would use it at least to some degree, but just how much remains to be seen. When I mentioned forging and blacksmithing to my 13 y.o. daughter, she surprisingly expressed an interest. That would of course be priceless if anything came of it. My wife's also very supportive and already has a lot of ideas which would keep any blacksmith busy for a while.

I've wondered just how tricky working with coal would be. From what I've read so far, I agree that chunk charcoal would be a good way to start.

I'm also not swayed too much when it comes to new selling prices. To me, there is an intrinsic value of equipment such as this which was originally fairly decent quality and has held up to years of use. The residual value is also important to me when it comes time to sell, and I consider that into the real cost. I don't mind tieing up a little money for a while if I think the value will still be there when I'm finished using it.

I'm still reading up on propane forges, and I don't mind building one, but some of the experiences people have had are a little disconcerting. Having to go through a dozen iterations of burner design over several weeks or months to get the thing "tuned" just right seems like a huge waste of time to me. I know burners can be purchased commercially, but it wouldn't take long to have quite a bit of money tied up in that also.

Sounds like you are however suggesting I build a simple charcoal/coal forge just to test the waters. I may very well go that way. I do have an old boat trailer brake drum, but the hub housing extends a couple of inches into the drum, so incoming air would tend to blow over the top of the coals. I would either need to cut that out or possibly just drill several holes at the base and cap the outlet. I would also need some sort of table (I guess concrete blocks would work) to support it reasonably well, and of course would need some type of blower. This drum is pretty small however, so I might be better off finding a larger drum off a truck or something.

I very much value all the opinions and advice you guys have offered. You have 10,200 posts as of now on this forum and I have 6, so believe me, your words are not wasted.

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Well, if all you want to do is "test the waters" then attend as many meetings in the next few months and try all the different forges available there. That should give you a better idea of what you may want rather than build something just to find out later you don't like it== time and $$ wasted. The forge originally mentioned is a very nice forge, IMO a little high on the $$, and will get you 'in the fire' in short order.

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Thomas,

Maybe not the best choice of words since I'm fairly confident I'll enjoy it and I'm willing to risk a little $$ to give it a try. Good suggestion for attending meetings, but since I've never been to one I wasn't sure how much actual forging they do at that time.

Still checking out the gas forge option as well. I happened across the Majestic forges on eBay and I like the design. A lot of the home-built forges use soft ceramic insulation, but this one uses a rigid liner. A 2-burner Majestic is a little over $300 and includes everything except the tank. His feedback is perfect, but I haven't found much mention on the forum.

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Well you are in luck for this weekend!! Gerald Franklin is hosting the THIS weekend 2/18/'12 and I can promise you that you can get some forge time! Heck, tell em I said you could have some forge time....but then be ready to RUN when you mention my name! :lol: Most of the Saltfork meeting are about 12-20 minutes of 'business' then the rest of the time hammerin on hot metal. Gerald also will teach workshops throughout the year and is an excellent teacher. Check the calendar here; http://www.saltforkcraftsmen.org/Calendar.shtm for Gerald's phone # and give him a call. He can give you some particulars of what will go on there on Sat. and I garantee you that the drive will be worth it! BTW, you can use both coal and gas forges as both will be used. Hope you can make it.

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I'm already committed for Saturday, but I'm glad to know more about the structure of the meetings. I had been shooting for the March 31 Basic Blacksmithing Workshop, but maybe I can get to one of the regular meetings prior to that. I would really like to see and try both types of forge. I'm sure that would help answer a lot of questions.

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Yes, that pretty much sums it up for me. I'm in the middle of a house remodel, spring's right around the corner and today I'll probably spend today tilling at least 5000 square feet of new garden area, wife would like to have a greenhouse/hoophouse built by next fall at the latest, need to build a new chicken tractor pretty soon, and of course I don't want to spend all of my home time outside away from the kids. My thoughts are that coal, while maybe slower or inferior to propane in some ways, is at least a quick way to get started and then to decide if it's something worth pursuing. If so, then I would know more about what to expect from a gas forge. If not, I doubt it would be too hard to sell.

I'll keep you guys posted on which way I end up going.

Thanks.


Try Craigslist. I got a 3' x 3' forge with a buffalo 400 fire pot and tuyere for $50 and then got a champion 40 blower for $130.
I had to look for a while, but I was glad I waited.

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  • 1 month later...

It's been a few weeks since I started this thread, but I took what I gathered to be the consensus advice of building a propane forge. I still want a coal forge and will continue to watch for one (they don't seem to come up very often around here), but the propane forge has given me a good start. I won't go into all the details here, but I'm planning to post pictures of it on the gas forum this morning. I've also acquired a post vice (Iron City brand I think based on the design) and I've built a decent hammer rack and a few other things. I'll post pictures of those also.

Thanks for all the advice, and hopefully I'll be posting back to the coal forum section eventually.

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