2Tim215 Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I have been struggling to get an economical forge going for large and unusual shaped work. Gas here is too expensive, coal is unavailable and I have just mastered the oil forge but still am not happy. Too build an oil (or gas) forge that retains heat yet has various options for open sides without losing the heat or using vast amounts of fuel to get hot, stay hot and not lose heat when opening the sides for funny shapes is proving impossible. But I have had a brain fart that I want opinions on. What if I build a "Coaless" coal forge? I like coal forges. You can forge anything, any shape and any size in a coal forge.I miss not having coal. What if I build the standard coal forge with a side entry turee that is in actual fact an oil burner and the "coal" is broken up hard and soft fire brick? The flame should heat up this crushed castable in the same way coal would and this would allow me to forge any shape or size. Thoughts please!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Look at commercial variation of this. I have seen them for natural gas. The conductive materials are not firebrick as that would degrade too fast. I believe that Jock has used one of this type over at anvilfire and has reported on several issues with it over there. (Including having to sift the materials frequently to remove fines from use) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 why not use BBQ style Lava rock to hold the heat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 because it's not rated for forging temps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
son_of_bluegrass Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 My thought is I didn't see charcoal mentioned. Is charcoal (or wood to make your own) available? If you've covered this before and I missed it.... my apologies. ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 I think what you are looking for is a ceramic chip forge. I don't know enough to help more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Turley Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 I may not be of much help. In the 1950's, I worked at the Charcoal House Restaurant in Michigan, and they were working over some kind of gas heated fake charcoal, maybe ceramic chips? I do sweat lodge, and in New Mexico, we have a supply of natural lava rocks (basalt)) that we heat in a large wood fire. Many of the rocks glow a dull red when brought into the darkened lodge. Could the rocks withstand more heat? I'm not sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astro_Al Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Don't know if this might help: http://www.flamefast.co.uk/forging.html Al. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knots Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Why not combine a ceramic chip forge with a hinged clam shell or crank up lid. The ceramic (or lava chips) would store the heat but would likely be difficult to embed large work pieces into. Opening and closing of a the lid would not be a problem since if large enough to require assistance it could be fitted with a winch . The lid could be left open for normal forging. Come to think of it I recently saw a posting here in IFI about a forge hood that was winched up and down to solve a draft problem. Such an arrangement could be made to drop down to form a lid and still act as a hood if insulated . The only problem I see might be fueling this kind of forge with oil. Blowing the oil air mix into cold ceramic media sounds problematic to me. However that problem could probably be overcome with propane preheating. This is an interesting conceptual problem that I will follow with interest. Edit: Check out SmoothBore's posting on the overhead forge hood thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcornell Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Make, buy or borrow an electric induction forge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Tim215 Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 Thanks guys for the replies. Did some research on the chip forge and there is not much out there and most of it negative. How do you all do large and weird objects in gas or do you all have coal and gas forges? I have always used coal for smith work and gas for blades. Now that I have no coal I have tried various gas forge designs and am busy with oil forges. So far the best has been a ribbon burner forge with gas but like I said - gas is expensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 coal is unavailable and One of my childhood memories is standing next to the railway line near Bethal and counting the wagons of the coal trains on their way to Richards Bay.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richards_Bay_Coal_Terminal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Yeah, I'm not sure how the traditional chip forge design would work with oil. Even extremely finely atomised oil is still a liquid, so it's not going to behave like a gas and rise up through the chips. One idea -- realize that I am just thinking off the top of my head here, and I've never seen anything like this -- would be to fire your oil burner into a very well-insulated firebox with the exhaust port on top, covered by some kind of ceramic mesh, or a ceramic (/castable refractory) plate with lots of holes in it. Put your firepot on top of that opening, and fill it with ceramic chips, so that the exhaust from the firebox passes through and heats the chips on its way to the atmosphere. You'd need a very good blower to make this work, if it could work at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Large weird shapes: For one offs or rare occasions: 1 take a section of kaowool and roll into a large tube. Tie a couple of pieces of bailing wire around it and stick a blown burner into it. Close up ends with stacked firebrick---with a layer of kaowool on the inside if possible 2: stack up firebricks to make a forge shaped for your odd piece. stick burners in where appropriate. Cover with kaowool or other insulative board. If it's something you do a lot of you need to build a dedicated forge for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knots Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 I have been struggling to get an economical forge going for large and unusual shaped work. Thoughts please!! So this sounds like you need a forge that can be configured to different sizes and opening configurations . I know a smith who used a piece of steel plate rolled to form an arch, insulated it with fiber and used insulating fire brick to build the walls and openings to what ever were needed for special projects. He used natural gas for the fuel but I know of no reason that oil fired burners could not be used the same way if the fiber were coated, which you would need to do anyway. If that route is selected you might consider installing extra burner ports to allow optimizing burner location for different wall / opening configurations. The oil being introduced into/through the ceramic media sounds like a big design development project. A lot of work without assured success. Probably the oil would need to be vaporized rather than attomized befor introduction into the ceramic media. Yet still an interesting idea. Maybe the combustion chamber is below with the ceramic media contained by a grate above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 It may help if you define large size, and odd shapes. Also have you the relevant handling facilities? This one is approaching large size Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Tim215 Posted February 9, 2012 Author Share Posted February 9, 2012 One of my childhood memories is standing next to the railway line near Bethal and counting the wagons of the coal trains on their way to Richards Bay. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richards_Bay_Coal_Terminal I know. I have one of the largest coal terminals in the world in my town - they won't supply! 2 coal mines within 100km's - they won't supply less than 250000 tons for a minimum order - very frustrating. Short of hijacking the coal trucks on there way to the terminal there is no way to buy coal here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Tim215 Posted February 9, 2012 Author Share Posted February 9, 2012 It may help if you define large size, and odd shapes. Also have you the relevant handling facilities? This one is approaching large size Approaching!! That's huge!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Tim215 Posted February 9, 2012 Author Share Posted February 9, 2012 I am not an industrial smith, but do artist work - sculptures, furniture, etc. So by large and unusual I mean your typical scroll work and shapes that do not easily fit into your typical square or round forge. Am busy with a variable brick oil forge that is managing but not optimal. http://www.sablade.com/forums/showthread.php?1033-Variable-oil-forge You will have to register for free to view pics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten Hammers Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I saw charcoal mentioned in a post and I also saw no replies or thoughts on it. Here in the states we can buy commercial charcoal (lump). This is made easily enough I guess but I just buy it. It works well enough in a coal forge but a pot designed for charcoal works better. Crank or bellows fine but power blower is ok too with an airgate. I have no experience in oil forges. You mentioned gas as being expensive. Charcoal can be used as coal with a few minor differences. Small learning curve. Just my thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I am not an industrial smith, but do artist work - sculptures, furniture, etc. So by large and unusual I mean your typical scroll work and shapes that do not easily fit into your typical square or round forge. Am busy with a variable brick oil forge that is managing but not optimal. http://www.sablade.c...iable-oil-forge You will have to register for free to view pics. I am sorry but I don't see your problem with a typical shaped forge. For centuries 'smiths have been making large pieces using conventional forges because they know how to manipulate pieces and assemble them to give the required effect. These were made in two hours and the two large ones are about three feet long in a side blast forge 3ft square Sculptures Or this piece of ironwork, All were made using "standard " blacksmiths forges to make the bits and then they were fitted together. It is possible that by making a larger specialised forge it will give too big a heated area and you will not be able to utilise it all which is a waste of fuel. Good luck with the project anyway, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I am sorry but I don't see your problem with a typical shaped forge. I think you missed this statement of fuel in the opening post. Gas here is too expensive, coal is unavailable and I have just mastered the oil forge but still am not happy. Too build an oil (or gas) forge that retains heat yet has various options for open sides without losing the heat or using vast amounts of fuel to get hot, stay hot and not lose heat when opening the sides for funny shapes is proving impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan_m Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I know. I have one of the largest coal terminals in the world in my town - they won't supply! 2 coal mines within 100km's - they won't supply less than 250000 tons for a minimum order - very frustrating. Short of hijacking the coal trucks on there way to the terminal there is no way to buy coal here. Have you tried asking for a sample? It's worth a shot at least, since with a minimum order like that a sample could easily be a few tons if they were willing to provide one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten Hammers Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Actually I'm gonna be with Dan. Consider it a challenge. Find the right connection in the coal industry local to you. Just break the ice. This may take some time. Salt their oats with a quality forged piece. You may get one chance to do this right. I would make sure this connection is authorized to give samples. You have no need for trouble with someone stealing from the company. It may pay you returns on your investment. Just ask for a sample bucket. Perhaps there are legitimate reasons for the industry not selling to small customers. Perhaps the reasons are not really nice politically. In all reality, the coal may be junk for forging. Coal trains pass north of here. Hundreds of cars. Power plant coal. Worthless for forging to me. Hoping you find a solution. Charcoal still works quite nicely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astro_Al Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I agree, it has got to be easier to find out what other blacksmiths within one or two hundred miles use than to develop your own type of forge. It doesn't sound like you're making anything particularly 'different'. Is gas really that expensive compared to other places? Are there any blacksmithing groups in your country who could help, or form a fuel buying group? Maybe the places buying that coal, rather than the place selling it, would let you have some - a tonne doesn't sound like the kind of amount they would miss... Good luck, Al. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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