David Gaddis Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 If the rebound of a anvil is a by-product of the hardness of the face, why is there such a hoop-la about an anvil's construction being cast iron base or steel? If cast iron is so bad could it be hard faced like some are and they become a quality piece to own? Is the anvil's ring a product of total hardness or face hardness? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unforgivun Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 I am not sure of the actual reason an anvil has rebound (what causes the rebound not why its desirable) but I would think that your idea of it being a result of the hardness would be very reasonable. Rebound is desirable because it saves the smith energy. Energy that would have been spent lifting the hammer back up for the next blow is returned by the anvil and the hammer lifted for him. Until you've worked on something that has NO rebound, you don't really appreciate this. The ring is a product of the body of the anvil resonating the vibrations produced by the hammer strike. The ring has nothing to do with identifying it as a quality anvil. For example, Fisher anvils have a very good rebound, and very little ring and are considered by some to be the best option as a result. It has been suggested on here that you may be able to braze or solder a steel face onto a cheap cast iron anvil (you can- hot face with low temp solder will do the trick). The problem with that is that you've just used a LOT of expensive solder on something that by design is still going to be inferior. You can't however really WELD a hardface onto a cast iron anvil I've learned because cast iron doesn't like to be welded to, it just sorta melts and puddles up. I would say if you don't have anything to beat on and all you can get is a cast iron ASO(anvil shaped object) then it may be your best option until something better comes along. Some would say to save that money for when a real one comes along, its up to you. My personal experience was with railroad rail as a starting anvil and then with a steel plate stood on edge. Rail is generally pretty easy to find. I asked around a bit and before I knew it had 2 pieces, 1 that was already cut like an anvil and one that was just a smooth cut section. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Glass is quite hard. I suggest you make a glass anvil and use it! Does that seem like a good idea? It would be cheaper than a good anvil. The problem is that grey cast iron is not a strong material under repeated impact. So there are several brands of anvils that have a steel face and a cast iron body to get the toughness and hardness of steel and get the cheap mass of cast iron. Facing a plain cast iron anvil is quite possible and probably would only cost you more money than buying a good anvil to start with. Buy the ASO, mill face of it smooth. Buy section of high alloy steel and mill it to fit and smooth furnace braze them together and try to figure a way to heat treat the face---A2 might work I'd have to check it's hardening temps vs the brazing temps to see if both could be done at the same time. Of course the cost of a new piece of A2 say 1x4x12 might be more than finding a used anvil ready to go... Better still is to buy a piece of steel at scrap rate and use it as an anvil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drewed Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Oddly enough, my forge buddy and I have almost identical anvils. He has a 1925 Trenton, 156 lbs, and I have a 1928 Trenton, 155lbs. The rebound is same on each of them, but mine has a much higher ring pitch to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hans138 Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 correct me if im wrong but i believe that the rebound indicates hard ness. i know that for a fact. but i also believe that the rebound shows that the anvil is not absorbing much of the hammer blow, this is good because for every action there is a equal and opposite reaction, so when you swing with a downward blow, the anvil face "pushes" on the back side much harder than it would if you had one that was not as hard and didnt rebound as well. this is kinda my theory on that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Gaddis Posted February 1, 2012 Author Share Posted February 1, 2012 All this come from a mistake on my part. I bought an anvil from Mr. X, that seemed to be of an Chezk import. This was the story. But it is a nice size and in an area that is anvil poor. Without having all the prerequisite training on ANVILS 101, I thought a decent rebound to be ?% and the ring to be ?amount. It had both, I thought. After beating on it I pulled out my little anvil that I had never used anf the hammer just about hit me in the eye, and sounded like a bell! Could I improve my misstake anvil by hard facing via the "Gunther Method" and save something out of it? You cannot easily hide an anvil from the wife. I am not afraid of all the welding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I think I would try to train myself to work the steel at the upper end of it's forging range where it's softer and not worry about it so much. Early anvils were pretty much plain wrought iron and I know a bunch of blademakers using A36 improvised anvils. The ring is something you need to get rid of in use as it damages your hearing. There are a lot of posts on how to quiet an anvil. (As long as the imported anvil is not plain cast iron which the spark test should tell you quite easily) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Gaddis Posted February 2, 2012 Author Share Posted February 2, 2012 I am looking for a dream I guess...down here there are few available. Those I have seen are small and beat to heck. Maybe going to a flat piece of 4150 etc and cut hardy hole and pritchel...then build a Brian-type triangled base..never look back. Who knows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaughnT Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 A lot really depends on the type of work you're doing. As a hobbyist smith, you don't need a hardy hole or pritchel hole in your anvil. These were invented because they made the london-pattern anvil a fairly good all-around tool. Yea, they can come in handy, but you can use a good heavy bench vise to hold a hardy tool. For making knives, a "traditional" anvil has a lot of features that are just a waste of space. A square or rectangular block of steel set into a heavy stand is all you really need, and it will work for a lot of general smithing as well. If you can find a metal supplier in your locale, they might be able to set you up with a cut-off piece of steel that's plenty big enough and heavy enough to do a lot of work on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Yes the London Pattern is sort of the "Swiss Army Knife" of anvils---very handy in a frontier society where a smith might turn his hand to most any task but not necessarily the *best* anvil for all tasks and it tends towards loudness especially in the late 19th century American variations whose elongated horns and heels increases the "tuning fork" effect. The older styled London pattern anvil with fat waists and short horn and heel actually work better for heavy work as the "sweet spot" covers much more of the face. (For new people: an anvil's "sweet spot" is the part of the face that has metal under it all the way to the base. So take a piece of chalk and where you can draw a vertical line on the side from top to bottom without running into air at either end of the anvil marks the area where you get most bang for your buck hammering *and* avoid possible breaking off of the horn or heel when doing heavy work with heavy hammers.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 I was given an ASO a few years ago and have toyed with the idea of forge brazing a grader edge on as a face. It's a pretty simple thing in concept but darned fiddly in practice. Matching the cast iron anvil to the grader edge is only time and work but shaping a grader edge is a real test by any means I know. You can torch it no problem but cleaning it up just burns through grinding disks unless you want to do it at medium red heat. Brazing or silver brazing will only take a large fire and time. While I was drilling the carbides on the auger teeth were silver brazed and are more than tough enough to survive stalling a 453 Detroit diesel repeatedly. I played around with the stuff and will say no human can hit it hard enough to break an anvil face loose. If you use grader edge (Wascowear or the equivalent) you don't need to worry about heat treating, the stuff isn't going to give for a mere human. I can't say about "normal" high C steels. Simply hardfacing a cast iron anvil isn't so workable. The cast iron doesn't have much of an incident of rebound, it moves and stays. (dents) If you overlay it with hardfacing you'll run into the property of facing of not being very flexible at all. What happens is the same as if you lay a sheet of glass on a piece of foam rubber and give it a push in the center, it checks and eventually spalls. If you take a sheet of glass and lay it over a clean piece of wood, counter top, etc. you can dance on it without a crack. This means the face needs to have not only impact resistance but a high rigidity to keep it from deforming the body beyond it's incident of deformation. A workable option, or so I've heard and it sounds plausible to me, is to face a cast iron anvil with buildup rod. Bildup rod is for repairing drill bits, buckets, auger, etc. that has deep damage that hardfacing rod would check and spall if applied to. Buildup rod is moderately hard but tougher than all getout providing the resilience and outright deformation resistance hardfacing rod lacks. It's also reasonably easy to grind as it is not abraision resistant so cleaning and facing a welded surface is a couple hours work while trying to grind hardfacing flat is a task you give a particularly annoying new guy in the shop. (read near impossible) Anywho, that's my take. I live in Alaska some several thousand miles farther from smithing tools than anywhere in Mississippi and I'd buy a new anvil rather than try building one. Provided of course my aim was using an anvil rather than partaking if the seriously satisfying practice of making one myself. A person doesn't take up smithing unless they LIKE making stuff themselves. Frosty The Lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Gaddis Posted February 3, 2012 Author Share Posted February 3, 2012 ALL well noted Frosty. Most certain I am closer to the anvil market than you. At least there are a few anvils down here to look at as opposed to being up in ALaska. freight always comes into play, moreso to you up there. If I buy another anvil my wife is going to jail...after she kill me. But I will get one, a good one, even expensive, when the time and opportunity arises. But I still am not against the idea of doing something to the "dead" beater that I have. It seems like hitting into the dirt after banging on a good anvil. Yesterday I did some projects that took waaayyy more time than when using a good anvil. And my arm is weaker from the excess beating too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob S Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 A lot really depends on the type of work you're doing. As a hobbyist smith, you don't need a hardy hole or pritchel hole in your anvil. These were invented because they made the london-pattern anvil a fairly good all-around tool. Yea, they can come in handy, but you can use a good heavy bench vise to hold a hardy tool. For making knives, a "traditional" anvil has a lot of features that are just a waste of space. A square or rectangular block of steel set into a heavy stand is all you really need, and it will work for a lot of general smithing as well. If you can find a metal supplier in your locale, they might be able to set you up with a cut-off piece of steel that's plenty big enough and heavy enough to do a lot of work on. Good advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Trez Cole Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 I forget which one it is but there is an old anvil maker what cast the body and attaches a harden plate for the face. I have seen ductile iron anvils do not know how good there are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim McCoy Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I believe that steel has molucules that are closer together and contains a higher carbon content than most all cast or wrought iron. That allows the compression that occurs when you strike it to rebound (equal/oposite reaction) with more force. The force of the striking hammer coupled with the rebounding force is what "works" the metal you are beating and changes its shape. There are lots of math formulae that explain this. Cast iron, and ductile iron are not as hard as cast steel or most tool steels. Yes some anvil makers in the past made London pattern anvils by either forging a steel plate on top of wrought iron or cast iron body - thereby creating a hard surface that would last longer with less deformation ... it seems that now most all larger anvil manfacturers make their smackers from cast steel - saves time in production apparently thereby saving costs. There are many threads here about alternates to the more familiar london pattern anvils ... most will work for many purposes, its just like is mentioned above, the London pattern is the swiss knife of anvils and has been proven over the last couple hundred years. There also a couple threads about making/forging your own London pattern anvil ... If I remember correctly no one who has done this suggests it as a profitable way to go for a one off unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Save that cast iron has several times as much carbon in it than high carbon steel. 1% is a good high carbon steel; 3% is a cast iron. I think we should try for accuracy as blacksmithing is rife with "old smith's tales"---like packing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now