PJames Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Some of ya'll are gonna laugh and others are gonna say.."Been there, done that". I just put in a 4 1/2 session pounding on metal trying to make a set of tongs. I know alot of you will have a double set of inornate iron gates done in that much time. I am sitting here right now with the muscles of my right arm so tired that I can hardly lift my beer... (But I'll use my left hand to help as needed...) I started the morning with using a grinding wheel to cut off my feeble pounding yesterday. Then I began pounding away, got what I thought was the right angles, making sure both of my pieces of rebar stayed relatively uniform. I did the 'hockey stick' curve then back and when I finished, they did not even come close... Back online and saw I had left out a bend.. After probably 200 heats and several coolings of the handle ends....(heat eventually travels down a long distance and makes it hot enough to get your attention REAL quick) I finally got both pieces symetric They fitted and looked they would probably work. A little rough but I liked the look. Then I tried punching and drifting. I used a punch to mark it and then a piece of the stuff I figured to use as a rivet as a punch. It did not harden enough but I finally got a hole started. Not in line so I got a drill bit and bored out a hole then used that drift piece to make it widen out. The off center proved to be my undoing. It took several attempts to finally get the hole widened. When I tried to rivet it with a tapered piece of that same material, It tore through. I realized another problem was I was using 3/8" stock originally so any mistakes would be amplified. I tried to bend the piece a little further up leaving the piece of rivet in place, figuring I might get that to work... Nice shape but the failed rivet area completely failed and there was no hope to salvage. Did I learn anything? You bet. But I did not get even a serviceable set of tongs. So it's either try again right away (or when work permits) or just rely on my channel locks and the POS long needle nose pliers I just bought at Harbor Freight to work on other skills. On a side note. I did try upsetting my rebar again. I kept it straight and it seemed to work a little. Not a big-time increase, but enough to be noticeable to my unpracticed eye.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob S Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Did I learn anything? You bet. But I did not get even a serviceable set of tongs. So it's either try again right away (or when work permits) or just rely on my channel locks and the POS long needle nose pliers I just bought at Harbor Freight to work on other skills. my advice would be to stick with the tong project. Build on what you learned today. A couple more sessions and you will be making decent tongs. Don't get discouraged if it takes a few tries. Also don't forget to put up lots of pictures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurlyGeorge Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 I agree. Don't stop now. Keep trying, while the lessons are fresh in your memory. You will be able to get a set completed. I am by no means the best tong maker around. But the ones that I have made from scratch, are very serviceable. The failures went to the scrap yard. Just don't give up. Practice is where the learning curve begins. Good luck, and, yes, post pictures of your progress and failures. Someone else may learn from that. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dablacksmith Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 ya keep it up and dont mess with rebar... buy some steel at the steel yard ...It works easyer and you can start with the right size stock ... makes a lot of difference in finished product also ... rebar can have hard spots and other problems .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfootnampa Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 3/8" rebar is pretty petite for making tongs. You'd likely have better luck with 3/4" rebar as starting stock. 1" stock is even better. As you are finding out a key to success is having enough material in the rivet area... much easier to start with larger stock and then draw down the jaws and reins. Drilling exacerbates the shortage of material in the rivet area (compared to punching). You might try making miniature versions of tongs with your 3/8" rebar stock. That would be good and cheap practice. The mini tongs can be pretty useful besides! If you do that, scale your rivet size down to match the smaller tong proportions though (5/16" rivets should be adequate). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brasilikilt Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 I was in the same boat as you....I read all I could about making tongs, and thought it would be a cinch. But as we both found out, they're trickier than they seem. One problem I had was getting both halves to match evenly, and had only mangled metal and wasted effort as a result. My "Tong Cheater Technique" may be of some help to you in saving you time and fuel. Start by clamping 2 peices of square/flat stock together side by side, (a stout pair of vise grips worked great for this) and forge the same as you would with an individual half. It worked very well for me during the intitial forming of the jaws, hinge area and for drawing out the reins. Obviously this wouldn't work for all types of tongs, but for standard flat jaw and bolt style tongs, I was nothing but pleased with the consistent results in half the effort and time. Hopefully this suggestion will be of use to you. Iain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Been there. I got probably 8 hours in a pair that I use. They are UGLY! (and rather big) post 55 is a nice set of plans that is easier than some, POZ tongs. It reduces some problems with the boss by using stock the right size for that area. I used this on 1/2x1 flat for a pair to grip 1 inch...yea. 1/4x1 or so works well. Hopefully inspirational, and useful. I can't do one heat myself. My advice: Leave plenty of material for the boss Use a FILE on the mating surfaces so the tongs will act freely, yet be tight. This is done cold after forming, punching and drifting, (or drilling) the last step before setting the rivet. This step may be omitted if the surfaces are suitably smooth. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 To help get the tong's pieces similar, try marking them out with a centre punch mark as reference points as to where to position them on the anvil when setting them down. This is a sequence for small tongs, made from 5/8" (16mm) square bar, marked out at one and a half inches from the end, rotated 90degrees and marked at two and a half inches, these are your datums for forging, just line them up on the anvil's edge as you start. Overall length for each piece is approx 8" If you dont have tongs, mark out on the end of a bar about 24" long and forge one on each end before cutting them off. First mark on anvil edge, half on blows and forge down to 1/2 of original thickness of stock Turn stock left through 90 degrees and go to far side of anvil, place on at approximately 45 degrees to edge and half on blows again forge in shoulder at the same original one inch mark Turn stock left again 90 degrees and move over square to anvil to the second mark, half on blows again and forge down to half bar width to form boss You can then punch in your rivet hole and finish drawing out the rein One shown needs finishing, then repeat for other jaw. This is the sequence when made for right handed use, jaws can be formed and set as required, These are relatively light weight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chichi Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Try to get to an experienced smith's shop and see how he/she gets sufficient heat to make the forging easier. If you took 200 heats, they were probably too cool to get the work done as you would like. It is a lot easier after you better manage the fire and take good heats. It will come. Keep pounding, and drinking beer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 On the comment of tool cool, try heating the metal till you get a sparkler. That is barely too hot, throwing a spark or two is OK. Iron works like soft putty at that temperature. Since you are using rebar, you may run into "hot short" where the material is going to turn into cottage cheese when it is taken to a high heat, or it may be "cold short" and at a certain temperature range it will be very difficult to work with, but hotter will be fine. This is because the chemistry is not well controlled in rebar, they are interested in finished properties. Sometimes the best way to learn is to burn up some metal! Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 GREAT you've got started! Now is time to start working *smarter* as you make use of the *VALUABLE* experience you now have. (I was a bit perturbed about trying to use a rivet as a punch---rivets are generally made using the softest annealed steel they can source cheaply. Punches are usually a tough medium to high carbon steel or even high alloy steels designed to stay hard at very hot temps. They don't interchange very well...Can you find a pin punch at the local fleamarket or forge one down from a section of coil spring?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Roy Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 The first try at something fairly complex usually doesn't turn out very pretty (at least in my shop). But practice will bring it around. I have some of the ugliest tongs on the planet residing in my shop and I won't provide any pictures. The other thing, from my experience re-bar is just too unreliable as material for forging. I would not use it for anything but a paper weight. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJames Posted January 9, 2012 Author Share Posted January 9, 2012 These are pics of one side of that tong. I left it n the patio and it rained all night. Rusted up fast!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 This workws for me if you would like to try it: Work in steps for a project; Like said above make a punch from steel that will work well. Then use that punch on some of the steel you wish to punch and get that process dialed in. Punch a lot of holes,,,learn how and when the cool the punch so it does not overheat and become part of the base metal. Learn how it feels when the hole is punched so it does not go all the way through but is so close that when you flip the steel over you can see on the back side where to punch and complete the hole. Then get some mild steel for rivets and try rivetting. you can learn this well on one layer of steel that you got a good hole through. Rivet both sides and learn how to use hammer and the anvil as a bottom die as you form a head with the hammer. then flip and shape the other side a little bit. When you can do several of these then try two layers, learn how to make the joint so it is not loose or so tight it will not open. Remember just either chisel the head off or grind it off and begin again even if it is right,,make a bunch of these joints. You want to build skills to the point that anytime you punch a hole or rivet anything it will be easy and successful. Then practice drawing out the large stock mentioned above,,learn to use the horn for drawing and a round face hammer will help. When that is another skill learned then start new and forge jaws on a length of stock. If it is not right cut off and restart. If it is not right drawing reins or punching holes will not help! Exercises are like paying tuition. It allows developing skills you need! And agian you will speed up all of this if you get into a group so you can see others work and get help with basics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Trez Cole Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 One of the things I did to feel comfortable making tongs is I did each step 10 times cut it off and through it away. Brian Brazeal has a one heat tong video after a few try's you will have it down. I find the Bill Epps method very effective as well. And made a set of tools from Gearheartironworks video to go on my power hammer they come in very handy. But once you master the one heat tong method you will be making tongs is no time. You are in LA get a hold of Brian and take a day class it will be the best money you ever spend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willis Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I REALLY hate making tongs! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Trez Cole Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 ya but at $40.00 each with shipping I will make them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJames Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 After i got off work today, I went around to a salvage yard. The guy let me have 2 coil springs for $10. Then, as we walked around the place he gave me a couple valve lifters and a valve "to see how they would do". I'm not sure if the coil springs were a good price or not but they look like a fair amount of material once cut up and straightened. I figure to make chisels, punches and hardie tools from the coil spring. What else would you suggest as starter tools? I'm still gonna have to make some tongs pretty soon as my POS long pliers from Harbor F. and my channel locks are not gonna get me far.. But at least I have some higher quality steel now to work with than the rebar and RR spike I was playing with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurlyGeorge Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Have you got a metal fab shop or welding shop near you? Stop by and ask if you can check out there scrap bin and look for some 3/8" or 1/2" round or square stock that were drop off pieces that they scrapped out. That will give you some more material to play with and learn how it heats and works, without spending a lot of cash. The springs should work well for some chisels and punches. Keep on scroungin' !! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Careful about engine valves, some are sodium filled. It would be...exciting to put one of those in a fire. I suspect that it would burn very vigorously, but would not be explosive since it would be reacting with air, and having to compete for the oxygen with the fuel you are using... however nobody wants to find out for real. If you take the volume (displacement method is probably easiest) and weigh them you can determine if they are solid steel or not. I'll let you look up the desired values. Solid steel engine valves should make good hot tools because of how they function, they are constantly exposed to very high temperatures. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I think the real issue with sodium filled valves is the possible unexpected splash of molten metal and it's possible impact on your skin where the sodium *will* react as it melts it's way in and catches on fire from the moisture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I think the real issue with sodium filled valves is the possible unexpected splash of molten metal and it's possible impact on your skin where the sodium *will* react as it melts it's way in and catches on fire from the moisture. Never thought about that point. Still don't want to put a sodium filled valve in my fire. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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