how small or how big a gas forge can i get away with

[Bigred1o1]

due to some issues with air quality and my lungs it has been recommended to me that i stay away from working with coal as much as possible
to this end i am looking for advice as to what sized propane fired forge i would need to be able to reliably heat 8 or so inches of inch thick bar stock and what is the smallest practical gas forge for teaching ones self how to make Damascus billets for fun
if this can be the same forges great if i can do a paint can sized forge for one and a bigger one with a pass through for the larger work thats fine
the biggest problem up here is i have not been able to find any light weight fire bricks but i do have kaowool
i made a smallish one to just get up and forging but it is by no means what i am looking for long term as it am finding it very cramped for working bigger items
i recently had to work with 2 1x1inch by 8ft long and forge them in to octagons this was painful to do in a the little beast as i could only really heat about 5inches at a time and i know my set up was on the inefficient side
if i had the cash i would get a Blackdiamond 2 burner economy forge
http://www.diamondba...nomy_forge.html


ok so long story short is this a good forge to try to emulate for my needs or am not quite on task
all in all i miss the easy yellow heated steel i could pull out of my coal forges and i am back to chase that dream

thanks for taking the time to read this ramble and sorry for any horrible miss spellings sins spelling is like thumbwrestling a ninja made out of aggravation (also known as dyslexia)

[David Einhorn]

........the biggest problem up here is i have not been able to find any light weight fire bricks but i do have kaowool......

Have you looked into acquiring a piece of kiln shelving from a person or store that might have broken pieces of shelving used for potter's kilns?

[Dodge]

Unless you have a power hammer, working much more than 4" or 5" at a time just isn't feasible, so length shouldn't be an issue. If you have a rear opening in your forge you can heat unlimited length, in theory. Passing long pieces in and out can be a pain, however. A work-around for this is to have the side wall of a forge be able to open. The down side of this is heat loss when open. Most people I know have worked for years with nothing much more than a 6" diameter by 12" or so fire chamber. A very popular design is the freon tank forge. I used one of the smaller thanks and lined with 2" of Inswool (ceramic blanket just like Koawool) it yielded a fire chamber 5.5" x about 9". This is ideal for billet work and about any other work I've needed to do. If you need to do larger work, you might want to consider more than one forge because doing knives and billets in a bigger forge than described above just uses more fuel. I'm sure others will give their input but do some homework; read all the gas forge threads here and/or Google "gas forge design". There is a wealth of knowledge at you fingertips
Scott

My freon tank forge on a temporary stand:

[Bigred1o1]

that is one nice set up Dodge
i had more thought i would ask as in doing alot of reading on line its hard to tell when something just seemed like a good idea vs when it has been proven to be a good idea alot of the forge builds i had found have no follow up as to what would have worked better or did not really work at all and you are right about the pass through i have a 1 1/2 inch hole out the back of the forge it works for a pass through
as to wanting a bigger workspace inside i had been sort of frustrated with not being able to have multiple things heating at the same time but i think that is more a leftover habit from using a coal forge
as to wanting a larger heat aria its was more to allow me to some longer bends in one heat or to do a some longer twits where i have not had much luck getting it to look quite right doing part of a twist then reheating and doing the second section with the same lines


as to the broken kiln shelfing David i have been lerking at the two potters i know in the around here but there there is no local supply i have found within 75miles so they then to hold on to anything that is a usefull size still a very good idea i am going to have to put it on my list of things to do when in some of the larger towns down in the southern part of the state

[David Einhorn]

........as to the broken kiln shelfing David i have been lerking at the two potters .... when in some of the larger towns down in the southern part of the state

A few suppliers of kiln shelves found with a Google search:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Silicon-Carbide-Kiln-Shelves-14-x-16-x-3-4-/180584178023?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a0ba7e167
http://www.clay-king.com/kilnshelves.htm
http://kilnshelf.publishpath.com/advancer-kiln-shelves
http://www.continentalclay.com/products.php?cat_id=413&sub_categoryID=271
http://www.dickblick.com/products/amaco-kiln-shelves/
etc........

[Ted T]

Forge Type or Style v. Costs v. Intended Use v. Fuel Emissions v. Fuel Availability" ~ ~

Trade off Dilemma"

I would like you to know that the issue you are evaluating at this time of what type of forge/fuel and size to use is not new.
In fact this is an issue that may re-surface for a lot of people who do blacksmithing for a living and or a hobby.
An example would be when people move to another home for instance.
They find to their dismay that there are restrictions in place about noise, emissions, use of fuel (coal- Coke-Charcoal), and certain activity restraints that you have to comply with.
As you no doubt know that there is a trade-off in most systems of operations.
Obviously that is why you are enquiring for suggestions
Be it - - “Time v. Quality”, - - Size v. Volume”, - - Strength v. Mass, - - Efficiency v. Costs, - - Material v. Availability, - - Machinery v. Labor, - - and so on and on!

I understand exactly what you mean about avoiding the products of combustion released from the use of coal.
As a second choice (which was my first choice) because of the low products of combustion emissions and economical availability, was to use Coke!
I used Coke for about 50 years;-- But then my source for buying coke at an affordable price dried up when they shut down the steel mills near where I live.

Due to being afraid of using a fuel with dirty emissions (Coal) and economical availability considerations, I changed over to propane gas.

Having to use of a SMALL gas forge was a whole new ball game for me.
I was not used to having to consider not being able to bring a large or irregular shaped object close to the source of heat.
As an Industrial blacksmith, at times we would even have to lower a piece of material down into the fire pot from a jib crane.
When I got my first SMALL three burner forge (Whisper Daddy II), I became depressed at the stark reality of losing the openness and control I enjoyed that had been used to all my life with a coke forge.

It was at that point that I was asking the same sort of questions you seem to be pondering at this time.

Here are some points to consider:
1. First and foremost, nothing beats a “hands-on approach” or seeing something that is of interest to you in person to help you make an “Informed” decision.
I would hate to admit how many times I tried to save money and time by trying to take a shortcut of some type and it would wind up costing me much more time and money than if I had done it correctly right at first.
Many of the shortcuts were mostly financially driven, but backfired in the end.
2. At this time I feel all the considerations I have explored over the past few years lead me to a simple conclusion.

One propane forge type or size did not meet my needs.

3. My solution was to use three different sizes and designs of propane forges.
At one time I had a reciprocating gas forge (one that reheats (re-cycles) the hot air it puts out.
It would most likely do everything you mentioned that you want a forge to do.
The cost of that forge would be a factor. I donated the one I had to a school.

So now I have a three burner, a two burner, and a single burner.
Of the three gas burners I have, I have the option to save on fuel, demand the heat I need, and/or create an opening in one of them which is a “C” style opening (clam Shell) forge that will accommodate large or odd shaped objects
Again it is a trade-off between opening the area of the forge up to accept a large piece of material to be heated v. having a higher (hotter) heat.

Yes I do miss the old coke forge!! My guess is that this is just the ramblings of an old man from the past “Coulda”, Woulda” , “Didda”, days of his life!
I wish you the best in solving your issue!
Ted Throckmorton

[Bigred1o1]

Ted your post has been the high point of my day just a good read and absolutely covers all my my thoughts and concerns i have made for myself 2 small gas forges so far and i am not really happy with them so it is now time for me to start spending some money to make a good one instead of taking my normal approach around the farm
that of diving into the scrap piles and coming out with a Clug
and my bet is nothing is going to be a nice as working with a good coal or coke fire that has some real personality to it i loved being able to get support from the coal to keep a peace right where i wanted it and other items around the edge preheating


and thanks david for the links
i guess the big question is it worth while to just keep limping along and save to buy some z-burners or a t-Rex or can i make my own that will give real performance

[Robakyo]

I'm curious as to why charcoal isn't an option? I know that both you and Ted must have excellent fire tending skills. From what I've read, not ever having used coal or coke, the forge set up is basically the same. In my opinion, charcoal does better in a side blast configuration. There are other differences such as radiant heat, fuel consumption, etc.

Since you have a farm, you would be in the enviable position of being able to make your own charcoal. If I tried that in my neighborhood, the fire-department would surely show up. There are many plans for constructing burners, quite a few by members on this site. Of course, my memory is very selective, so I don't recall who or where to acquire this. I would use that search box in the upper right-hand corner of this very page. Or Google: forge making tutorial by Nathan Creel. Good luck.

Robert

[pkrankow]

I built a single burner around a single common firebrick as the floor. I would recommend that as a size your first gas forge build. One burner makes it less complex, the size is small so it can be built for low material cost, my little forge can heat 6 inches of length to a useful working temperature. Put good doors on it, a clamshell or slot for wide stuff, lots of possibilities it can do, and building the second forge after getting one working right is easy!

Phil

[Bigred1o1]

i started out with a charcoal fired forge that was quite happy to burn my steel when i got a bit enthusiastic with the blower(way to big but free)
my main reason for staying away from charcoal is the lack of proper ventilation in the shop shop i have to work in it has 16ft high ceilings and sins i tend to have to move my forge around in side depending on what i am working on the propane seems the cleaner option

[Bigred1o1]

sounds good phil and that is sort of the direction i am going get something smaller but solid and then when the big investment comes i will really have the tuning down the first propane forge i made was a miny tunnel that could get a nice even heat to about 5inches but was so darn small as far as working space goes it was much more of a place to fiddle than useful in the shop the second one has worked well but will not hit that nice yellow heat so its time for me to look into building some real burners

[Rich Hale]

Seems like you have looked into this a lot and likely do not need this: but make sure you know that Propane forges give off huge amounts of carbon monoxide which can do serious bodily harm even to folks with good lungs. This came to mind as you said the fumes from coal were getting to you. I also have a concern abouit making billits,,The way I make them is to weld a billit and then cut into three pieces and prepare all surface to be welded by grinding all scale off those faces and then stacking and welding the billit again. Repeating til I get the layer count I am after. In the grindin I protect myself from all the scale and particles released from the grinding wheels as they wear down. Those airborn pollutants are looking for aplce to land. However you handle the gases or particular matter is up to you.

[Bigred1o1]

very true Rich i have a well ventilated shop and i have a home made air filter in place to catch the bigger particulates and the like so even when buttoned up for the winter it has pretty good air quality
for when i am grinding or stick wielding i have a respirator on even thought i don't like it i like it more than being sick so i deal with it
still thanks for you consern as these things are so easy to just shrug off until they catch up with you

[Rich Hale]

My concern was based a bit on wot you said about the lung issues, And a lot on your location. I had a gut feeling that in the winter yoiu kept shop closed up to prfevent frostbite! Hover closed shops and propane burning anythings are an extremely bad idea. ASn air filter of any sort simply will not give you protection from this poison that cannot be seen tasted or in most cases felt until youi have gooten they symtpms of the poisons affect on your body. Early symptoms are maybe, and not in order as that can be an individual thing; Dizziness, light headedness, confusion, And there may be a few more that a lot of folks ignore because at this stage they do not wave red flags in front of you! The progression goes onto a couple of things more significant; Such as muscle weakness and loss of consciousness. I have read a lot about folks becoming red in the face from this but have never seen this and have seen many folks unconscious and dead from the poison. So the bottom line is three fold. You need air into the area where the forge is so it works properly and you need a adequate fool proof way to exhaust the fumes from the forge. The third item is to have a working CO monitor or three in the area where the forge is working. An alert from one of these detectors means exit the room and open doors and windows.
At least every winter here we have one or more folks trying to get warm inside a closed space by using charcoal fires, Most of those make the news as badly ill folks and or fatalities.
Usually in the bbq that has been moved inside. These tragedies have been in tents, campers and homes that have had the power turned off, So everything above relates to charcoal, wood or any other fuel you might use to forge with. I have not seen a death here from using a coal forge indoors yet but that may be tied to the limited places to buy coal and the need for a supply of forced air. It may also be tied to the visible products of combustion from coal, as it cokes off it emits smoke and smells that may indeed seem to be a red flag to someone looking for signs of danger. Be forging but be safe!!!!

[Ted T]

Thank You Rich, Voice of Wisdom!

I will speak openly and boldly because I would not want anyone else to experience the same dilemma I was faced with at one time of not knowing if I was going to get my next breath or live through the night.
It is real, and for the most part preventable with appropriate education.

The “Good Health” of “I Forge Iron” is dependent on different people at different times who will inject an appropriate statement of caution about safety issues.

I consider it a blessing when a skilled member see’s any possibility that a safety issue has not been addressed or not being addressed properly and thoroughly, that will step up and become the voice of wisdom.
Today Rich stepped up to the plate, Thank You Rich!

Combining the teaching of skills and procedures of blacksmithing coupled with the associated safety applications just makes good sense and is wisdom in action.

I believe that without teaching (in balance) the skills and techniques of blacksmithing coupled with safety applications in our posts are as risky as teaching a UFC Fighter how to “punch only”.
By not teaching how to block and defend against his opponent’s punches, kicks and take downs, a person may get buy for a while with limited information, but it will catch up with them in time.

I stand Guilty of “Linier Thinking” and not considering who may read my response about coal fumes.
As the post was heading at the time of my post, I was only thinking inside of the “BOX” of thought (you know! the box Glenn tells us not to get in, so we don’t have to think out of the box) and emphasizing products of combustion of coal ONLY, and then talked about using propane as though it was flawless!

I never once mentioned or warned about any safety aspects that should be considered when using propane, its use or abuse.

The Danger is that an inexperienced person, who is unaware of issues that may develop with the use propane, may possibly interrupt the lack of a warning about propane as that it is completely without safety considerations, which there is many!

So I feel an apology is due from me (and I do) to all who may have been disarmed by my lack of being more specific because I know better.

I recognize that this is lengthy entry, but just so you will know why I am so willing to clarify how important it is to include the safety aspects along with the technology (in balance) of blacksmithing follows;
At one time I had to pay the brutal price of trusting uninformed people who talked as though they were authorities on the subject.

So here is a question that I think YOU should ask yourself.
How important is it to protect myself from fumes or products of combustion of any type?

My answer: It is as important to me as life. I have learned the hard way that if I do not take personal responsibility to protect myself and or anyone who may rely on my judgment or knowledge that a crippling or deadly results may occur.

Avoiding fumes and products of combustion is important enough to me that here are some of the precautions I take to protect myself;
#1. I use a “Fume Extractor” that cost nearly $2,000.00 dollars whenever I weld.
#2. I use a special air-filter mask when I weld. I will not mention the name etc.
#3. I have bought a special air-pump to bring air into my mask when I Tig weld.
#4. I designed my new blacksmith shop specifically with the roof designed for maximum ventilation.
#5. The windows are specifically located and will open so the prevailing wind will naturally vent my shop when I am working.
#6. The location of my propane tank is located outside. “The shape of my shop was designed so the location of the propane tank would be placed in accordance with our local ordinances.
#7. The propane is hooked up according to the legal requirements in my area for reasons of safety.
Note: I will not mention what they are due to the new I Forge Iron policy of not talking specifically about laws.
#8. Anything that produces “Products of Combustion” be it heat, fumes or grindings, I will do my best to protect myself from the exposure by wearing safety gear that includes protecting my eyes (hard to see out of a wooden eye), ears, inhaling/exhaling nose and mouth, hands and feet, and my body if need be. Common sense and experience needs to be applied 100% of the time.

#9. Situational Awareness: The location of where you are doing your work needs to always be considered.
Just one example: If you are welding (installing a railing).
Have you taken means to make sure that a child will not walk up on you and get flashed from welding?
Consider Ventilation, Fire or explosive potential, Eye flash and Legal aspects of where you’re working, just to name a few.

Without going into more boring detail, I can tell you that I have seen animals suffer because they did not have ear protection or eye protection and are exposed to blacksmithing and welding environments.

Be aware of where you are working and how the potential effect of what you are doing may impact others or the environment.

Unfortunately I have seen it happen over and over again where highly skilled and less skilled contributors to different threads (me) at times get so involved debating about some of the various skills and procedure issues, that the reasonable and necessary accompanying issues of safety were not addressed for the considered and the benefit of new craftsman.

If you read this far ~ ~ Well! ~ I am not sure what time Dr. Phil comes on in your area!

PS. Robakyo; I do not know anything about Charcoal is why I never mentioned anything about it! - - I am glad you did. That is what this site is about!!

The very best to all of you!
Ted Throckmorton

[Bigred1o1]

my shop has 15ft high walls and the peak is around 20 there are 2 windows at the peak that located in such a way that i can open them and use them as a air scoop to pull in fresh air and vent fumes up high as well i am set up with a forced fresh air blower downstairs as well as windows set up for cross ventilation
i use a respirator when grinding and wielding and the air cleaner is set up with a 3ft x 3ft hepa grade filter to with a cores and fine filter so i can remove particulates from paint and to sawdust from the air
my rule of thumb is the air quality can only be counted on with fresh air coming in so if its cold i put on more layers and for the most part i want the shop between 45 and 50*f in the winter anyways and thats not hard to keep
i have asthma so i tend to be consensus of the air quality as i enjoy breathing and hate using medication so i am well motivated lol

i will admit that my tanks are inside convenience of being able to to move the forge around but they are on a cart that is well well away from the forge its self and once i can afford to plum and run lines for the tanks into the shop i will put them outback but currently its a risk i am ok with similarly to having my acetylene / oxygen tanks inside

and i am well aware of situational safety working and welding around farm equipment and in the the barn its self with 2 inquisitive small girls next door that loved the cows/pigs and pooped over all the time
all in all its always good to have people watching out for one another its one of the best ways to know the health and quality of a site

[Robakyo]

Ted, all I can say is Thank You! You have given me a lot to think about. I've considered propane to be the most hazardous choice for forging, for some time. Coal is out of the question where I live, so I've been struggling along with charcoal/wood. Earlier this year I had a chance to forge a knife at Aldo's hammer in. He had a two burner set-up that worked awesomely. I realized that propane wasn't as bad as I thought. But of course, it should absolutely be respected!

I made a coffee can forge to finish the knife that I made at Aldo's because I didn't like the way I positioned the sweep of the tang. Also, I was able to widen and taper the tang in order to allow for larger scales. It worked well enough to do what was required. I should have put a back door in it, but at the time I didn't realize how crucial they are. Now, I've moved up to a 5 Liter mini keg as my forge body. I discovered that they are in fact made of steel. I tested it with a magnet at the store. Of course, it was a whole lot of work to finish all that beer in a timely manner. Eventually, my persistence paid off.

The burner I'm working on is based on the burner in the tutorial by Nathan Creel, whose design is based on Mr. Larry Zoeller's design. I am having minor issues because I lack certain tools. I can't find Tweco mig tips anywhere. The mig tips I bought at Harbor Freight are smaller than the inside diameter of the 1/8" X 4" schedule 80 pipe nipple. I've considered just silver brazing one in. I'm wondering if anyone else has tried that. Anyway, check out Larry Zoeller's website as well. He shows you how to construct a steel 5 gallon paint can forge. I wish you the best. - Robert

[pkrankow]

Tweco tips are available at welding supply stores, places that sell gases and welding equipment...and not much else. I used Lincoln tips from Lowes, they are Tweco compatible, but cylindrical instead of tapered.

Phil

[Robakyo]

Tweco tips are available at welding supply stores, places that sell gases and welding equipment...and not much else. I used Lincoln tips from Lowes, they are Tweco compatible, but cylindrical instead of tapered.

Phil

Thanks Phil! I have seen the Lincoln tips at Lowes. I had no idea they were the same size. That gets me very close to finishing my burner. Your tutorial is very thorough, but lacking a drill press, I couldn't possibly hold my cordless steady enough. I'll go back and re-read what was written on the Kcrucible burner page.

Robert

[pkrankow]

Your tutorial is very thorough, but lacking a drill press, I couldn't possibly hold my cordless steady enough.

Thank you, I am glad to have helped with the thread and pictures.

The jig is all about keeping it steady and does the hard work of keeping the drill in line. Having a letter/number drill set may help with getting the right size to fit nicely through the fittings with little slop.

In reality you need only be close to alignment in your machining (closer is better of course) since the copper contact tips can be bent easily by slipping a small open end wrench over them and levering on them to correct the aim.

Phil

[ThomasPowers]

When I use my propane forge I have 2 10'x10' roll up doors open along the direction of the prevailing winds and the shop's gables are open and there is a 1' wide vent down the entire roof, (30').

I take extra precautions as I will often run the propane forge rich to cut down on scaling and carbon loss when forging knives.

Even if you run it at a balanced mix any chance or re-running the exhaust through the burner can max out CO easily.

What I like about coal is that it *TELLS* you that you shouldn't be breathing the fumes. Coke, Charcoal and Propane tend to hide the fact that deadly fumes are being released.

Of course I'm lucky in that I can forge this way in the winter with no real temperature problems most days. I hope to put in a small coal stove to make tea on though.

[Frosty]

The brand name "Tweco" came up as that's what I had on hand when Ron and I were brainstorming the things. Any mig tip will work though some may need to be cleaned out with a torch tip cleaning file set and some mig tips have metric threads. One of the guys here has been using the metric tips and has the things well tweeked at the 1/2" burner size.

I've posted a pic of my forge any number of times so you guys who are tired of looking at please feel free to skip the rest.

Most anyone who is smithing more than a specific product runs into the "how large a forge do I need" dilema, below is my solution. It's an adjustable volume design, the lid is on a scissor jack though I recommend a trailer screw jack. The floor is an insulating castable refractory covered by split 3,000f fire brick. The side and partition walls are soft fire brick and can be rearranged to customize the chamber size and shape. Everything is liberally coated with ITC-100. The burners are my "T" design ejectors plumbed through a manifold with individual 1/4 turn ball valves.

Frosty the Lucky.

[Robakyo]

The brand name "Tweco" came up as that's what I had on hand when Ron and I were brainstorming the things. Any mig tip will work though some may need to be cleaned out with a torch tip cleaning file set and some mig tips have metric threads. One of the guys here has been using the metric tips and has the things well tweeked at the 1/2" burner size.

I've posted a pic of my forge any number of times so you guys who are tired of looking at please feel free to skip the rest.

Most anyone who is smithing more than a specific product runs into the "how large a forge do I need" dilema, below is my solution. It's an adjustable volume design, the lid is on a scissor jack though I recommend a trailer screw jack. The floor is an insulating castable refractory covered by split 3,000f fire brick. The side and partition walls are soft fire brick and can be rearranged to customize the chamber size and shape. Everything is liberally coated with ITC-100. The burners are my "T" design ejectors plumbed through a manifold with individual 1/4 turn ball valves.

Frosty the Lucky.

If I ever become proficient enough at this craft, I would like to build one like yours. Is that WI piece half of a chain link? It looks massive! Where do you find salvage like that? Old canneries, abandoned mines, old logging chain sections abandon in the forest, or some secret shipwreck? When I think back to the years I lived in Sitka, I realize that there an abundance of abandoned machinery, rusting and unclaimed. Definitely salvageable.

I also think that the problem I have with fitting the mig tip is that I suspect that the pipe nipple isn't 1/8" and therefore not schedule 80. I just measured it and the wall appears to be 1/16" thick. The guy at the plumbing supply store looked at me like I had two heads when I asked for schedule 80. I should have measured first. It appears that the tips aren't the problem. Well, at least I have 19 spares now!

Robert

[Bigred1o1]

Frosty i surly do have forge envy
its odd but while i do many hair brained things in my life for some odd reason
building burners just has me a bit unsure i am currently using a very old propane burner for melting tar roofing and its just not really the best of solutions
i think part of my reluctance comes from being a very visual learner and the fact i have not been able to find a legitimate gas forge to look at and ask questions about physically has been my stumbling block

[pkrankow]

Robert, you have a few choices, especially with brass pipe. You can swage the end of the brass pipe down, drill it out and tap it. This can be done by hand with a hammer gently tapping it to close it in (SOR) be careful to not make sharp corners, and you may need to heat and anneal if you need to work it much.

You may also be able to swage it down with a tubing flare tool or a nicopress swage, close it down, rotate 1/4 turn close it again, and after a few times doing this checking with a drill bit as a gage it should close down. You are just using the clamp portion.

You can solder the contact tip into the end of the tubing

You can get a fitting to put on the end of the pipe to drill and tap.

There are choices, limited more by creativity than anything else.

Phil