pkrankow Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 I am thinking about making a combination hammer eye punch/drift. Why a combination? I do not want to make two tools to make a tool. The tool I am after is a handled slot punch, suitable for many things, including making hammer eyes. So in essence the "punch" portion of this drift only has to function a couple times. Now, the directions I find for a hammer eye drift seems to be: 1) start with round, about 1 inch. 2) shoulder to form a hand grip, or taper back to allow a dressable area for striking. 3) taper to about 1/2 inch round over 12 inches 4) form the round taper into an oval taper, without growing its length 5) grind to finish if necessary. So, to form a taper Hofi states that there is a 1/3 to 2/3 relationship between a cone and a cylinder. He also states there is a 22.3% relationship between a square taper and a cone taper. If I read this right, starting from 1 inch round stock and finishing at 1/2 inch for a total length of 12 inches I should be able to take 4 inches of round, draw it out to 9 inches as square, then as I round it (SOR) the part should grow the remaining distance to 12 inches. Or am I off base because I am not finishing the part as a point? I have not run rigorous volume calculations at this point. Also, what would better dimensions for a hammer eye drift be if this set is less than suitable? Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McPherson Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 My friend, you are suffering from the scourge of the information age: Paralysis by analysis. Just because you *had* umpteen years of math drummed into your head does not make it the *best* or only path to a solution. Here is an alternate way that will use the same side of your brain that an artist blacksmith works with in the forge. Get some modeling clay, form a punch/drift of the size and shape desired. Trial fit it on some hammer heads for grins. Lay it on some graph paper and take some pictures of it so you will have some dimensions, or just sketch it in a notebook. Now, scrunch it into a ball, and roll it out to a cylinder, or whatever shape your tool steel is in. Measure it. Mark that length back from the end of the bar, and forge it out, starting with the point. Cut it off when done, no tongs needed unless you decide to heat treat it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Trez Cole Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 this is what Mark Aspery uses the taper is there you just have to flatten it. I have made a few hammers now and you need at least 3 drifts and three punches they will get hot fast and need time to cool Brian Brazeal uses a punch drift it works well. For me I like to have them separate. Last weekend a friend and I made 7 punches with drifted eyes in them took 2 hours. we kept switching from one to the next and got it done real fast with over heating the tools. There are better prices out there just have to search : $21.99 from $21.99 Standard Bull Pins - 1-1/16x3/8x15" bull pinBuy new1 Used & new Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted August 14, 2011 Author Share Posted August 14, 2011 John, you are right. I model everything else in clay. Francis, the flea markets I have been to are lacking. I need to get down to that drive-in place in Columbus. My starting stock is 1 inch round x 12 or so since I have that already. I don't remember what it is, I think it is 1045 (ground and polished). I need to label my stock better. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Turley Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 Lots of old shop made tools in the U.S. had capsule (like an Rx capsule) shaped eyes, straight sides and half round ends. The eye can be .twice as long as it is wide, but that is only a rough rule of thumb. It you start a taper on the end of the bar and "work backwards," you'll control length, arrive at what you want, and can then cut it off. The resulting forging may be a little rough, especially trying to get the half rounds, but it can be cleaned up with disc or belt sanders. I think that the old timers had an easier time hogging a flat sided taper with half round ends than forging a uniform oval taper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alec.S Posted August 15, 2011 Share Posted August 15, 2011 when i was making drifts with Brian Brazeal. we used a piece of 1 1/8 1045 . first heat, on the end, forge a steep taper down to 5/8. Then using 4 inches of remaining material, behind the taper... you draw your taper. One must try and make it as round as possible. then cut off 4 inches from where the taper starts and stops and forge the handled part, just a hex taper... it could aslo be round square or left as a bar, your choice. then turn it bake to the long taper and flatten two sides all the was down so you will have a " capsule shape " . i hope that made sence.... alec Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Trez Cole Posted August 15, 2011 Share Posted August 15, 2011 I made some out of 5160 1" it seems to hold up the best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alec.S Posted August 15, 2011 Share Posted August 15, 2011 oh yeah, 5160 would be brilliant... but with a hand hammer.....hhmmm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcostello Posted August 15, 2011 Share Posted August 15, 2011 Hey Phil, the drive in at Columbus is not as good as it once was, live in Lancaster and go there every year. Last 2 years came home empty handed. Don't forget Caesars Creek as it has more, but also seems to be withering. Flea markets seem to be drying up here, hope the trend does not continue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted August 15, 2011 Author Share Posted August 15, 2011 There is supposed to be a really good flea market in the Akron area, but I am always up there for "something" and never have time to stop. Alec, how long is the taper portion from 1 1/8 to 5/8? Yes, I will probably be doing this by myself by hand. The bull pin looks very handy, near net shape starting point, but I have never seen one other than full retail price. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 15, 2011 Share Posted August 15, 2011 Sorry Phil I moved to NM about a half dozen bull pins from the drive in fleamarket in Columbus. I'd buy them whenever I saw them for a dollar or two... Fleamarkets are sort of like fishing. You don't expect to come home with your string full every time but doing it regularly increases your chances. If I got a great deal once ever ten visits then I was getting one every month at that fleamarket as I would stop by Wednesday Saturday and Sunday. People getting to know you and what you would buy at what price makes it more likely that dealers will "speculate" on a pile of old rusty stuff sure that *you* will buy some of it from them. Now you may note that the eye that Hofi uses on his hammers is different from the eyes typical of old american hammers (but his looks a lot like ones I saw in Germany at the fleamarkets there on some equipment) I would say find the eye *you* like best and try to duplicate that rather than accepting someone else's as being the "right" one for *YOU*! (I like fairly meaty eyes that correspond to fairly cheap hammer handles in my locale). Car axle is another source of steel for eye drifts and can often be found in suitable diameters to work from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Trez Cole Posted August 15, 2011 Share Posted August 15, 2011 sway bars work great also Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted August 15, 2011 Author Share Posted August 15, 2011 sway bars work great also Great for busting out concrete too. The shops around here turn their scrap over very quickly, so I have had no luck so far, and not because I haven't asked (they all said to take a look). The scrap yard is one way, buy only. The bone yards want more than scrap rate for scrap springs around here. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Trez Cole Posted August 15, 2011 Share Posted August 15, 2011 Phil here it is a time issue finding time to go to the scrap yard. I have started using 4140. can get it from my metal supplier in 12' lengths all sizes faster and works well. I suppose I could order 5160 at this point I like using the drops cant beat the price. Just picked up a piece of 4130 2 1/4" 90 cents a pound. good stuff for hammers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alec.S Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 the taper portion equals to how much you grab... and the drift i described has been proportioned by someone who has made hundreds of hammers and many hundreds of top tools ( brian brazeal ) and with each one having to have used a drift... i am sure he has experiance in this field! but i believe, before you flatten it to make it capsule shape it is about 9 inches + or - a little bit....... is what i seem to remember Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alec.S Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 Also... drawing the taper is no sweat! it took me 9 heats ( brian it took him six ) swinging a five pound hammer.... dont get too anxious about it... just reduce surface area contact to move more metal and use a heavy hammer. http://www.youtube.com/user/alectheblacksmith#p/u/16/U-C31MskGQs that is me at brian's tapering the drift with his five pound hammer.... and if i ( a very small thirteen year old ) can do it... every one else has the potential do it way better because they are a foot taller than me, weigh twice as much and are much stronger than me... it is just about using the correct techs to get the job done faster.! happy metal moving, phil!!! alec :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Trez Cole Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 Thats the next project 5 pounder. I made a 4 pounder and yes Alec I did do it by hand now I have a taper die for my power hammer it makes short work of it. can knock it out in 3 heats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alec.S Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 you will LOVE a five pound hammer!!! are you talking about the drift?when you say you " did do it by hand" are you talking about the drift making ( if so out of what steel, the 4140 you were talking about or the 5160 ? ) ( if you catch my drift ) ( sorry... i just had to say that ! ) oh yeah... you will love a five pound hammer!!!!!! ( that repeat was on purpose ) alec Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted August 18, 2011 Author Share Posted August 18, 2011 I think I need a bigger hammer. Yes, I plan to do this like in that video, but I wonder if I have enough arm for this. I suppose I do not have to do the whole job the same day instead of exhausting myself. I have a couple pieces of 1 5/8 round, 12 inches long. I have moved metal on those to make some anvil hardy tools using a 3# hammer...it took a while. I figure a smaller diameter material would move easier. I also see that using a long piece of stock really is the way to go vs using tongs. I have an 8# hammer head I may re-handle with a short handle (no handle currently), and cut some off it to make a cross peen, and lighten the head a little. I have been thinking about this for some time. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Trez Cole Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 Alec you should not catch the drift to hot LOL yes both all by hand with a 4 pound hammer no helper. 5160 for the punches and drifts. 1 3/4" to 2 1/4" 4140 and 4130 for the hammer head. Brian came and did a hammer making demo at my shop for FABA I have been making hot punches with an eye and drifts plus making hammers I will let you know how the 5 pound hammer comes out. I am developing my own style. I am a lot more comfortable punching big stock now. The bull pin I use is ok but heats up real quick not like the 5160 that is much better metal I have been having good luck with 4140 I like the way it works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alec.S Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 I found the hard way... That having a long piece of stock is a bad thing in this size..... I would have much prefered to have had a 12 inch piece in tongs because especially for a very small person like me that stock is very very heavy after a while of hammering!!! I got more tired from holding the stock than I did swinging Brian's five pounder as hard as I physically could!!!! Sounds great Francis !!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 Howdy, Alec! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alec.S Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 Well hey there Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alec.S Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 How are you this fine summers day!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 I'm doing just fine. I've been busy. Just filled a big order, so now I'm back to making more tools to make tools. Lyle and I have a big class in Minnesota coming up and there is supposed to be twenty people in the class. I'll take some pictures today of the drift making to post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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