Carbide Removal

[Hayden H]

How do I remove carbide from the oil ports and ram on my L.G.? Does carbide cut carbide, or do I need to get diamond? The ram guides, and ram have been tagged pretty good with carbide to hold this old farmers hammer together. The pitman pins are completely welded into place. Should I diss-assemble the thing and take it to the machine shop and get it bored out?

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

"How do I remove carbide from the oil ports........................... tagged pretty good with carbide"??????????

Don't know what you mean by this.

[Ric Furrer]

Hayden can you use different words?
Carbide is a structure of carbon and some other element...titanium/tungsten/silicon/iron..etc
Unless the tool was metal spray coated or plasma deposited in some way...and there is no reason for this....then I think you are using the wrong word to describe what you see.
Do you mean an electric weld?

On the flip side...it is good to see that Grant does not know something....I suggest we pin this one!

Ric

[ThomasPowers]

I'd guess it would most likely be "tagged" with stainless, nickle or even brazed as commonly used alloys on cast iron equipment.

Careful use of a cutting disk on an angle grinder is usually indicated. As is careful evaluation of "Do I really need to do this or can this particular bodged repair be left in place?"

[Hayden H]

... Some of the oil ports, and the pitman pins are welded with carbide into place. (Pitman pins, toggle arms,) They weren't technically welded into place, the assembly moves as it should, but the ptiman pins are not removable, and some of the oil ports are "tagged". (when something gets hit with the welding rod, completing the circuit, thus producing little random blots of welding rod, carbide, etc. intentionally or un-intentionally on a part, and or object.) Basically, 50+% of the oil ports have some sort of carbide bead on or over them. So I can't oil the pitmans, ram guides, or toggle arms. The die is welded into the ram, and I highly doubt it will come out with the ram fixable. It's welded from the top of the die to about 1/4 from the bottom of the die. (Carbide welded also) I have 2 weeks to work on this, and after 2 weeks, I can only work on it at night after school. I know I'm taking my toggle arms to the machine shop to get a quote on what they'd cost me to have machined out of armor plate. (Yes armor plate, what they specialize in for mill parts). Just to see if it'd be cheaper than $400 from Sid.

[Hayden H]

I'm leaving the ram die, as it is. But I'm getting toggle arms and pitmans for sure. And it's carbide, chisels won't touch it. Wire brushed the welds, and they're still shiny like a carbide weld should be

[arftist]

... Some of the oil ports, and the pitman pins are welded with carbide into place. (Pitman pins, toggle arms,) They weren't technically welded into place, the assembly moves as it should, but the ptiman pins are not removable, and some of the oil ports are "tagged". (when something gets hit with the welding rod, completing the circuit, thus producing little random blots of welding rod, carbide, etc. intentionally or un-intentionally on a part, and or object.) Basically, 50+% of the oil ports have some sort of carbide bead on or over them. So I can't oil the pitmans, ram guides, or toggle arms. The die is welded into the ram, and I highly doubt it will come out with the ram fixable. It's welded from the top of the die to about 1/4 from the bottom of the die. (Carbide welded also) I have 2 weeks to work on this, and after 2 weeks, I can only work on it at night after school. I know I'm taking my toggle arms to the machine shop to get a quote on what they'd cost me to have machined out of armor plate. (Yes armor plate, what they specialize in for mill parts). Just to see if it'd be cheaper than $400 from Sid.

Um, no it is not carbide. Carbides are extemely hard and have very little strength.

It may have been welded with a nickel rod, wich many even have some carbide migration from the surrounding cast iron, but still not carbide.

The worst case is nickel, tough but machinable and certainly no detriment to grinding.

Yes, chisels will not cut some things. That is why grinders were invented. Still doesn't make it carbide though.
Using the correct terminology is very important, if you want to communicate clearly.

As to using armor plate for toggle arms, this is a potential very dangerous idea, depending upon the exact "armor plate" you are refering to.

[arftist]

I'm leaving the ram die, as it is. But I'm getting toggle arms and pitmans for sure. And it's carbide, chisels won't touch it. Wire brushed the welds, and they're still shiny like a carbide weld should be

What the heck is a carbide weld?

Please provide a link.

[macbruce]

The only carbide welding matierial i've ever seen is a brazing rod impregnated with carbide chips for making things like your own core bits from pipe..............

[nonjic]

angle grinder is your friend. There are not many machines that cant be stripped down by a determined person armed with 2 adjustable spanners, a lump hammer and an angle grinder :)

[ThomasPowers]

Do you perhaps mean welded with hard facing rod? It's not carbide which tends to be brittle---a good smack should crack it; but it is very hard to chisel or grind.

Stray weld BBs and usually be popped off with a hammer and chisel though they may leave a rough spot behind to be dressed on wear surfaces.

We keep getting off track by your use of "carbide" when it's not; but may be a colloquialism for hardfacing which it could be though a very poor choice for the job.

Stainless welding rod will also leave a shiny weld after wire brushing and the old missile-weld rods were used to mess up a lot of stuff by farmers. (Least-ways all my farmer kin used it to excess!)

Either way: angle grinder with cutting or slitting disks---just more of them than with a less difficult material.

[Bob S]

pictures of what you are calling 'carbide' and 'tags' might help someone here understand what you mean. so far not so much.

Bob

[MattBower]

There's a reason carbide teeth are *brazed* onto steel saw blades and lathe tooling.

Are you trying to say they were TIG welded, perhaps? Tungsten is at least related to (tungsten) carbide.

[pkrankow]

I bet ThomasPowers nailed it: sloppy "missile rod" welds. The OP will have to confirm it.

"Missile rod" is rod that is designed to lay easily and stick well to a wide range of materials with an inexperienced operator doing the welding. It may also have been a hard face product.

If it is a higher C product, then sticking to the "cold" frame would quench and harden the material so a cutting tool would not bite into it. Abrasive wheels cut many materials that a drill or saw will not touch. If the welds are "proud" of the material (extend above the surface) then grinding the surface MAY or MAY NOT free the part. If the weld is contained in the part, then it will not work.

A machine shop with carbide tools probably can cut the welds.

Phil

[Timothy Miller]

I think what he is getting at is. Where the cast iron has been welded, the cast iron next to weld has been converted from gray cast iron (soft and easy to cut and drill) to white cast iron (glass hard brittle impossible to machine). White cast iron is full of iron carbides I think that is what he means by carbides. This is a result of insufficient preheating and post heating in other words whoever welded it did not know what they were doing. I would as mentioned above use a grinder for the easy to get at parts. Then go in with a carbide burr held in a die grinder. One with a narrow tip should be able to clear the oil holes or you could drill new ones close to the old one.

[Hayden H]

I called the old man, that had it prior to me, and he said it is in fact carbide welding rod.(What he knows as carbide, and what my mentor knows as carbide are the same thing, hes where I got carbide from, and he called the rods I welded onto a post-hole digger edge carbide, same semi gloss weld that the rods I was told as carbide left on the edge of the digger blade.) He said it was fixed by his dad years ago with carbide rods (hard face rods I think) that they had on hand. It came out of an old oil field and welding shop, he said the rods were used to add carbide to the pipe stem area to keep it from wearing thin from rubbing against the casing. It is brittle, (chipped a sizable peice with a chisel) but it takes awhile to grind on it. I got all of the tags off with files, and a little die grinder. (It looke like somebody held the rod to close as they yanked the lead causing it to touch sporatically.) So now I am corecting myself, it is hard facing rod, but that still doesn't explain the extreme brittleness.

[pkrankow]

Hard face rods tend to contain carbide forming elements, and are high carbon to form those carbides. The coating on the rod may also contain charcoal to help push the carbon content of the filler up. Cast iron is very high carbon (over 2%), much higher than steel (mild steel has about 0.2%). A proper weld will mix the base metal and the filler metal. If the base metal was properly preheated, it would cool slowly and be tempered, it probably would still cool fast enough to harden due to the carbon. If you go on the websites of hard face rod makers (such as Stoody) they can be very informative. Some hard face materials WILL crack, and that is considered normal and proper for certain applications. The small cracks will capture dirt and hold it reducing wear even more.

If the base metal is NOT preheated on a larger part, then the weld will quench with the base metal drawing the heat out rapidly, so the material would harden fully, then remain in that state and still be brittle. If welding brings the part to about 400F-500F then resiliency should have been gained from tempering.

Phil

[Patrick Nowak]

Hayden,


Based on your more recent description, I think you will find that the weld deposit will be almost imposible to grind or machine without diamond or cubic boron nitride tools. It sounds like the original repair was made using a poor choice of materials. If you are convinced that alterations to the existing components and repairs are necessary, you will probably find it cheapest to buy new parts from Sid. I do not think it is advisable to make the arms from "armour plate" since these are a fairly highly stressed component that require toughness more than hardness. The armour plate I've heard about is designed to resist wear and impact loads in mining and heavy exacavating jobs, This is not what you need for toggle arms and more than likely the armour plate material will be more costly than a more suitable material such as a simple carbon or low alloy steel. I don't like the idea of the dies being welded in place simple because that means they can't be changed. You may be able to remove the weld metal in this area with a carbon arc gouge, If you are careful there should be minimal damage and what damage there is should be repairable with a more conventional filler material.

Patrick

[Jim]

Hayden,

When you take the toggle arm to the machine shop have them heat the area where the hard face rod is in the oil hole, maybe pack in lime or stove ash to cool. A good solid setup on vertical mill with a carbide ball mill about a medium speed (900 RPM) take little bites or short feed down. Use some good dark cutting oil, be careful not to break the cutter off in the oil hole then you've got a big problem. Another answer is to use a tap blaster or E.D.M. machine. FYI Electrical Discharge Machining kind a like arc weld instead of leaving material it removes small little beads, tap blaster are course version of the same machine.

Hope this help.
Jim Riddle

[Hayden H]

I know I'll for sure be ordering the whole toggle arm assembly from Sid, the machine shop quoted me $250 a peice minumum. (I honestly don't understand why they're that expensive, they make flails for mills that are extremely close to the toggle shape, for $85) The crank pin, is welded onto the cross head, but I think I can break those welds relatively easy. I'll order pitmans, ram, toggle assembly, cross head, and the crank pin. And the video. Still can't find another L.G. owner in my vicinity.

[JNewman]

I know I'll for sure be ordering the whole toggle arm assembly from Sid, the machine shop quoted me $250 a peice minumum. (I honestly don't understand why they're that expensive, they make flails for mills that are extremely close to the toggle shape, for $85)

There are a number of reasons that the machine shop wants much more for the toggles than they charge for the flail pcs.

I would assume you are not providing them with a dimensioned drawing or depending on the machine shop a CAD solid model. They will have to produce this for two parts. Their customer for the flail pieces almost definitely provided that information. They will have to do that themselves for your two pieces, and if the parts don't work after taking dimensions off scrap parts you will likely be back to them. That costs money

The flail pieces sound like a consumable so they probably make lots of them. This means they know exactly how long they take, your pieces they are not sure. They probably buy the material in larger quantities which can be MUCH cheaper especially if they are profile cut pieces (laser, plasma or flame cut) or even more especially if they are forgings or castings. There are likely jigs, fixtures, and or toolpathing programs written to make the flail parts very efficiently. This is also one of the reasons some blacksmith shops can charge less for certain products and yet still make better money.

Finally the customer buying the flail pieces is probably a regular customer providing a significant percentage of the machine shop owners income. Like it or not that makes them much more important to the machine shop than you tiny order. Other shops are potential competitors for that work, that forces the price down.

Sid produces the toggles for many hammers so he can make them cheaper he probably has original drawings and hammers are his business. You would probably be hard pressed to beat his prices unless you made them yourself.