Unforgivun Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 My brother in law came up with an 80lb Fisher anvil stamped 1886... Its my understanding that these anvils are an iron body with a cast steel face. The face appears to have been maybe hard faced at one point to repair a break. There seems to be roughly 1/4 " of the original steel plate left on the majority of the envil stepping back up to roughly 3/4 in at the front end of the hardy hole. So we had an idea as to how to do it, but wanted to post this out there to get more. After some research we were thinking it would be best to get the anvil hardfaced again (provided the welder says there is enough steel left to do it) then grind the surface flat and weld a new face using either A2 tool steel or 4140 steel. Thats our idea... Maybe (probably) flawed... Sooooooo INPUT! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 You're thinking of doing build up with hardfacing rod? That's pretty much a non-starter for a couple reasons. Hardfacing rod is brittle but more importantly has a really poor adherence to other welding rods laid over it so trying to weld a plate on would be a real gamble. Were I doing this I'd reface the anvil with build up rod and grind it smooth. Build up rod is intended to keep hardfacing laid over it from flexing and breaking meaning it has a high deflection resistance. Try laying a piece of glass on a piece of foam rubber and pressing down in the center, then lay a piece of glass on a table top and press down. The analogy is exaggerated to make the point but the principle is the same, brittle over flexible breaks, brittle over hard doesn't. Also, build up rod grinds fairly easily where hardfacing is intended to NOT grind off, it's for wear resistance. Hardfacing takes multiple passes well where hardfacing starts to shrink check and fail at two passes. Best of all, a well laid buildup rod ground satisfactorily doesn't need a high C plate, it's already pretty high C. It's NOT tool steel mind you but it's bearing towards the high side of medium C to be tough, have a really high deflection and NOT work harden. As a side note, while I was a driller I burned hundreds of lbs of build up rod and hardfacing rod, later we switched to flux core hard facing wire but build up was still the same. Frosty the Lucky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Note that the cost of having a professional welder re-work this anvil probably exceeds the cost of buying one in better condition. If you can get the welding for free or the anvil has some other significance then re-working it might be worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unforgivun Posted July 12, 2011 Author Share Posted July 12, 2011 Note that the cost of having a professional welder re-work this anvil probably exceeds the cost of buying one in better condition. If you can get the welding for free or the anvil has some other significance then re-working it might be worth it. We pretty much have access to all the equipment needed in one form or another so its not as bad cost wise I don't believe. We have access to a mill, high end welders etc. Ours was more a question of the metallurgy ya know. More so a what would be the best way. So Frosty, you are saying it would probably be better to just build up the face using build up rod and then either grind it or mill it smooth? Don't worry about the plate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 How were you planning on welding on the plate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njanvilman Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 My brother in law came up with an 80lb Fisher anvil stamped 1886... Its my understanding that these anvils are an iron body with a cast steel face. The face appears to have been maybe hard faced at one point to repair a break. There seems to be roughly 1/4 " of the original steel plate left on the majority of the envil stepping back up to roughly 3/4 in at the front end of the hardy hole. So we had an idea as to how to do it, but wanted to post this out there to get more. After some research we were thinking it would be best to get the anvil hardfaced again (provided the welder says there is enough steel left to do it) then grind the surface flat and weld a new face using either A2 tool steel or 4140 steel. Thats our idea... Maybe (probably) flawed... Sooooooo INPUT! The original steel plate was not cast. It is W-1 type of tool steel, cut from a bar of appropriate size. It was attached during the casting process, welding itself to the iron. The original plate on an 80 lb FISHER anvil was in the range of 3/8" to 1/2" thick. It was never 3/4". If the anvil face is flat, and the edges are good, you might want to use the anvil first. It might work fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 You really need to post pictures. If the face is mostly flatish and the edges blown out then you still may want to use it some before going through a process that may make the anvil less usable. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unforgivun Posted July 13, 2011 Author Share Posted July 13, 2011 I'll get some pictures uploaded of it... they might just be cell phone pics, but you know We've been using the anvil as is for a while now, Just with the fast fall off being right around the hardy hole it makes us really hessitant to use hardies with this anvil. For the most part, its given us a horn to work on instead of using pieces of pipe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Again, though, how do you plan to weld on the plate if you go ahead with your plan? Just running a groove weld around the edge isn't likely to give you satisfactory results, and refacing a cast iron anvil by forge welding seems extremely risky, if it's feasible at all. I'd be very worried about melting the body of the anvil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BM454 Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 I'd use it until it (needed) to be fixed. I'd be safe to say the anvil would do its job just fine without any welding on it. Using it instead of welding on it would be much cheaper. Just my thoughts. Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unforgivun Posted July 13, 2011 Author Share Posted July 13, 2011 Yeah, it may be just that we continue to use it as is. I'll get some pics of it up soon so you guys can see and judge for yourself. I mean its done just fine so far, we're just concerned about it causing the heal to break off at the hardy the way the face does. But, its like a really odd sized hardy as well, I think we figured it out to be like 5/8". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Cast iron is an amusing liquid at steel forge welding temps. Look up Rob Gunter's method of anvil repair. "First: Do no Harm!" is an excellent suggestion. I've seen a number of anvils pretty much destroyed by mills, including a recent one that took 5-6 hours of a professional weldors time using a big professional sized welder to get back to a usable face after the original was milled square and clean and too thin to use. If you absolutely MUST use a mill on it don't forget that the base and face may not be parallel and so FIRST clamp the anvil face down and mill the *BASE* to make it parallel and then flip it over and "kiss" the face lightly. I've seen two anvils where they didn't do that and so milled *through* the steel face and into the wrought iron on top because the anvil had a slope to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 We pretty much have access to all the equipment needed in one form or another so its not as bad cost wise I don't believe. We have access to a mill, high end welders etc. Ours was more a question of the metallurgy ya know. More so a what would be the best way. So Frosty, you are saying it would probably be better to just build up the face using build up rod and then either grind it or mill it smooth? Don't worry about the plate? That's what I'm saying, hard facing rod is not intended to be beaten on and it's a real PITA to grind smooth. Build up rod is a high deflection rod, something like 8086 or 9090, it's almost immune to work hardening and we couldn't deflect it with the 453 Detroit driving the drill rig. While you certainly can weld a plate on you need to get 100% penetration to prevent having a dead spot in the face. Ever try getting 100% into say 2.5 or 3"? (half the width of the face) Forge welding a new face on is a recipe for the anvil Darwin awards. The original faces were welded in the casting process not afterwards. You might try brazing or silver soldering one on, it should work just fine; if you get it right of course. I plan on seeing if I can convert an ASO to good anvil by brazing or silver soldering on a high C face. If you're wondering if Braze of Silver solder is a strong enough bond, the carbides on the drill bit teeth are silver soldered and the same 453 Detroit diesel couldn't tear them off without extreme dedication of the driller. If you do try brazing let us know how it works please. Frosty the Lucky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unforgivun Posted July 16, 2011 Author Share Posted July 16, 2011 OK! Got a picture Finally! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 The face failed, and only the little bit on the heel remains of the tool steel. That will be entertaining to fix because of the cast iron body. You will need to lay down a layer of nickel rod first to bond to the CI, then you use an appropriate rod for between the buildup rod and the nickel rod, then you buildup per the directions on welding an anvil. You have been working on the CI body. In the short term I would forge a shim for the hardy tools to go through so the difference in height is taken up. For a hot cut the forces are low, I would use it with a shim and not worry. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 You might try brazing or silver soldering one on, it should work just fine; if you get it right of course. I plan on seeing if I can convert an ASO to good anvil by brazing or silver soldering on a high C face. I'm very pleased to know that I'm not the only one crazy enough to have had this thought! And with an air hardening steel you could probably braze and heat treat at the same time. This would be a good anvil to experiment on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evfreek Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 The photos really help. A milling machine or surface grinder would not be too useful on this project. It looks like if you want to do some welding, it might be best to fix the hardy hole, then you can use that and the horn. I have had good luck fixing cast iron with the standard techniques, but I have also seen a Fisher with a nickel job whose top plate popped off. This can be very discouraging after blowing lots of money on the rod and seeing the top pop off. You can spend as much money on the rod as a replacement anvil, and as much time on the welding as a fabricated anvil and have nothing except a tragic reminder afterwards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmeineke Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 I did one that was in similar shape (hardy hole was still intact, though) and it turned out pretty good. I gave it to my dad and he uses it now: http://www.iforgeiro...r-on-the-cheap/ If you have the rod or the money for it, I'd go with the Gunther repair rout. It's tried and true. The one I did was strictly done out of consideration for cost and was somewhat of an experiment. The face is holding up, but YMMV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 Of course Joe's anvil wasn't cast iron bodied! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 I don't think this anvil is worth fixing. Keep using it till you find a better one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Horn still works and the hardy can be set up to hold an extra tool in place that can be very handy doing production work! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unforgivun Posted July 20, 2011 Author Share Posted July 20, 2011 Yup, if nothing else, it gave us a horn :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unforgivun Posted August 9, 2011 Author Share Posted August 9, 2011 Check this out, its a small Fisher anvil with a new face attached. Ugly, but interesting none the less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Boy that one's "fun sized"! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Here's the ticket: Have that part machined flat, then put a dovetail in it like this: http://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/22852-strange-stand-for-a-strange-anvil-for-a-strange-guy/page__fromsearch__1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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