john_zxz Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 Hi, I have a project that I want to forge but I have a problem with it. I want to make a candle stand which have a couple of small scrolls. Habitually, I weld them with my stick welder but for this project, I want it to be done " in a traditional way". I want to rivet them. I'm okay with riveting (when I can hit the head directly with my hammer) but when the scrolls are already formed, how can I hit the head without deforming the scroll? I never seen anyone doing this and never saw a picture or drawing in my books. Is there a tool that I can make to do that? If someone has a photo, a drawing or a link so I can see how it is done, thank you in advance. John_zXz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 A photograph of the rivet location and the scroll would be helpful in specifically answering your question. You can make or use a river set tool to keep the head from deforming. The rule of thumb is to use 1-1/2 the diameter of the rivet to form the rivet head. To make a rivet set, first make a rivet head that you like. Heat the piece of steel that you plan on using as the set up to high orange or yellow, and drive it onto the rivet, making the impression of the rivet head in the end of the tool. Use a grinder to dress up the working end of the tool, then harden and temper the tool. If the rivet location is a fit difficult, you need to use blacksmith ingenuity solve the problem of how to get the set tool into the proper position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurlyGeorge Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 Or you could use a collar. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fciron Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 Curly has a point. A collar would be the traditional way to join scrolls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike-hr Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 Look up 'Snarling iron', it's just a rivet set that's bent so's it will get into the space you need it to get to. Also, those couple extra small leg vices in your barn are actually 'inertia bars'. They will provide enough mass to enable riveting with the snarling iron without extra fixtures. In the absence of spare leg vices, a buddy with a sledge backer and a well trained oxy/fuel torch will work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianinsa Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 John, For small rivets it's relatively easy to 'mod-up' a set of jaws on an old boltcutter to set rivets! Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Countryforge Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 Hi all. I have a modified vise grip pliers which I ground flat and set a half round on each end. It works well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 I'd say that old school traditional would be forge welding based on scrolls seen on medieval objects. This is one of the cases where those weird hammers can come in handy---one with a long curved small cross peen that can arc into the scroll and hit the rivet. I have a couple of hammers that only get used to rivet in difficult places---like the inside top of a spangen helm. One ornamental "cheat" is to use copper rivets as they are easier to peen; another is to arc weld and then collar and lets not forget forge brazing AKA the penny weld. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_zxz Posted June 9, 2011 Author Share Posted June 9, 2011 Thanks for your replies everyone. I guess I'll go with the collar then. It will be easier than riveting as the scrolls are a bit small. Thanks for your ideas. John_zXz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 Hi, I have a project that I want to forge but I have a problem with it. I want to make a candle stand which have a couple of small scrolls. Habitually, I weld them with my stick welder but for this project, I want it to be done " in a traditional way". I want to rivet them. I'm okay with riveting (when I can hit the head directly with my hammer) but when the scrolls are already formed, how can I hit the head without deforming the scroll? I never seen anyone doing this and never saw a picture or drawing in my books. Is there a tool that I can make to do that? If someone has a photo, a drawing or a link so I can see how it is done, thank you in advance. John_zXz There is a place for rivets, and a place for collars. here are details of a solution that may help. Here is a candle holder similar to your description. There is also pictures/information here showing a similar application but on a bracket here are some relevant pics from that reference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_zxz Posted June 10, 2011 Author Share Posted June 10, 2011 Thank you John B for the pictures and explanations on your link. After a brief reflexion I will use rivets and collars. The middle part of my candle stand will look better with collars, for the rest, I will use rivets. I will make a tool like yours. Thanks for the idea. I'll post some pictures of the finished project when it will be done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Turley Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 If you can't reach the preformed rivet head with a hammer, you can use a bucking bar. It is maybe 10" to 20" long with a short length, angled bend on one end. A reverse dome can be forged into the short end, so that it covers the rivet head. The bucking bar is held fast on the rivet head while the protruding shank is peened up. An oxy-acetylene idea is given on page 67 in a 1965 book from the U.K., "Creative Wrought Ironwork" by Austin Underwood.* He uses a welding tip to take a SHORT HEAT on the scroll fairly close to the protruding rivet shank, and the scroll is moved away allowing room for hammering. When finished peening, another short heat is taken IN THE SAME PLACE, and the scroll is pulled back into place. *D. VanNostrand Company, Inc., Princeton, New Jersey http://www.turleyforge.com Granddaddy of Blacksmith Schools Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highwayman Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 The very tip of the anvil horn is your friend in the world of scroll riveting. Almost all rivets can be backed here, and once you get the hang of balancing your piece while riveting, you'll be fine. If you really need to maintain the dome head, then obviously this wont work. But on a large piece no one will ever notice the difference, especially if all your rivets have the same flat spot. In some cases, you either can't balance the piece at the right angle, or the space allowed isn't big enough for the horn. In these situations I like to use a large bending dog or scroll wrench to back the rivet. This works best with a friend applying pressure, but can be done solo if you're clever. You can get very creative with this and will find that you almost always can find a way to back it. I have included some pics of a single malt scotch rack I made last week that was entirely constructed out of rivets. Note the position of the bending dog to back the rivet head. Also, when it comes to actually hammering the rivet, don't be afraid to come in at weird angles with the ball peen if you can't get a straight shot. Just remember to alternate directions so you don't bend the rivet too far over one way. This technique also requires a little practice before you try it on a final piece, but is invaluable once you get the hang of it. I personally love the look of scrolls with rivets on them, but collars a great too because some joints just don't look right aesthetically with a rivet. Hope this helps! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeman Posted August 15, 2011 Share Posted August 15, 2011 I have included some pics of a single malt scotch rack I made last week that was entirely constructed out of rivets. Fantastic work! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trinityforge Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 You can always use a stake anvil. Tin smith anvils are long and designed to let you reach in hard to reach places. Look up tinsmith stakes and see what they have, if it is not quite what your looking for then make a new tool and let us know what it looks like and how it works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
famuel Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 Over here in the UK we would use traditional ball nuts with a short piece of threaded bar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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