monstermetal Posted April 23, 2011 Author Share Posted April 23, 2011 Wow really? 41.5 seems really high for a 2b. My 3b is at 35 and my 60kg saymak is 38.5. And I'm 5 11. I was thinking around 33" for the 4b one of the big factors in giving in to concrete is the steel would have put the die at around 45", 10" higher than the 3b is now. Didn't seem so bad till mocked the hammer up. 45" is really high ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fosterob Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 Are you short? If I stand in front of it for 5-6 hours the little bit of hunch is felt at the end of the day, there is no reason to not be standing straight up. I never understood the mentality of the bigger the hammer the lower the anvil needs to be? Large pieces will be lifted and supported by some kind of hoist so there is no reason that I can see to give yourself a bad back so you can look like someone in an old photo working at the hammer. Maybe I am missing something? 45" may be high for me but not by more than an inch or two. Centerline of work piece at a comfortable non hunching height minus 1/2 the size of the work piece most commonly used with tongs should set the lower die height. Large work isn't held with tongs so is a little more forgiving on posture. Remember -haste makes waste- Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGropp Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 So how are are you going to orient the two hammers on the foundation, back to back,or side by side ? Just think, in 25 + years, sharpening 40,000 jack hammer bits per year at $1.50 each should pay for that building, Better get that die height just right ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted April 23, 2011 Author Share Posted April 23, 2011 Are you short? If I stand in front of it for 5-6 hours the little bit of hunch is felt at the end of the day, there is no reason to not be standing straight up. I never understood the mentality of the bigger the hammer the lower the anvil needs to be? Large pieces will be lifted and supported by some kind of hoist so there is no reason that I can see to give yourself a bad back so you can look like someone in an old photo working at the hammer. Maybe I am missing something? 45" may be high for me but not by more than an inch or two. Centerline of work piece at a comfortable non hunching height minus 1/2 the size of the work piece most commonly used with tongs should set the lower die height. Large work isn't held with tongs so is a little more forgiving on posture. Remember -haste makes waste- Rob Im 5 11 I think the thing you fail to take into consideration is the bigger the hammer the farther you have to lean in to the die... You cant stand upright in front of a 4B, if you did you would be close to 3 feet from the center of the die, so it needs to be lower because as you lean in thats what is the most comfy... I think my 3B could stand to be a couple inches taller but my 135lb hammer I really like where it is at 38.5".. Maybe I got longer arms that you?? :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted April 23, 2011 Author Share Posted April 23, 2011 I am considering pouring a foundation/slab that is sub grade in that whole area of the shop... still building the steel foundation and setting the 3B up on timbers and then filling the 10" or so that around the hammers with sewer rock... my whole shop is concrete and I think it would be nice to have some dirt/gravel floor around the forging area.... So I basically would have a 12' X 12' or so 10" deep swimming pool in the center of the shop with the two hammers sitting out in it and the rest filled with gravel... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clinton Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 I would do the work myself if it were me- check the price to rent the equipment. You can find someone that needs fill dirt to get rid of the dregs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted April 23, 2011 Author Share Posted April 23, 2011 The problem is I am booked with work that pays me 90 bucks and hour... And I am not a concrete guy... It doesn't make sense for me to do the work, it would cost me more money than paying someone to do it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fosterob Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 Im 5 11 I think the thing you fail to take into consideration is the bigger the hammer the farther you have to lean in to the die... You cant stand upright in front of a 4B, if you did you would be close to 3 feet from the center of the die, so it needs to be lower because as you lean in thats what is the most comfy... I think my 3B could stand to be a couple inches taller but my 135lb hammer I really like where it is at 38.5".. Maybe I got longer arms that you?? I did not think of the lean in factor but I am not sure about it. If you are doing stock the machine is rated for you would not want to be that close to it. I know everyone has their own comfort level and I just try to share the reasoning why I like my comfort level so others may apply as they choose. Now that I think about it the 3" plate on my 2B forces me back from the center of the dies, maybe 8-12" beyond where you would be without it so I am used to working farther away. Something to consider for those who want to mount on plate. Rob I wont talk about knuckledraggers :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrismetalsmith Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 I am considering pouring a foundation/slab that is sub grade in that whole area of the shop... still building the steel foundation and setting the 3B up on timbers and then filling the 10" or so that around the hammers with sewer rock... my whole shop is concrete and I think it would be nice to have some dirt/gravel floor around the forging area.... So I basically would have a 12' X 12' or so 10" deep swimming pool in the center of the shop with the two hammers sitting out in it and the rest filled with gravel... I think that is a solid idea. I just raised up my 2B, for a couple different reasons, and I put it on oak timbers so I wouldn't have to pull the hammer off the anvil, to mount it to the steel plate. The oak timbers were a really cost effective way to mount the hammer. As far as height goes that is definitely a personal preference. I'm 6'4" and my anvil on the 2B is 36", that feels very comfortable to me. The lower the anvil the more safe I feel. A quick look through the Nazel catalog shows the anvil getting lower the bigger the machine. I think it was this way for safety of something kicking off the die. The lower it is the further away from the vitals the workpiece is. Filling in with gravel will make a comfortable work area on your back. The only downfall I could see is if you have any thing like a cart or forge on wheels it will be a pain to move over this. My entire shop floor is concrete bricks laid over a base of sand. It does not lend itself well to fabricating right off the floor, but I love it in the forge area. It is very forgiving on the back and I can still roll stuff around. I have carts, my forges, and my hydraulic press all on wheels, to move around for flexibility at different power hammers and the 2 forging stations. The bricks work well. When I put them down, I filled in the cracks with a mix of mortar and sand to give the bricks a flexible mortar lock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted April 23, 2011 Author Share Posted April 23, 2011 So how are are you going to orient the two hammers on the foundation, back to back,or side by side ? Just think, in 25 + years, sharpening 40,000 jack hammer bits per year at $1.50 each should pay for that building, Better get that die height just right ! I cant answer that till I spend some time today, but either front to front in a line or side by side, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric Furrer Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 I cant answer that till I spend some time today, but either front to front in a line or side by side, You may need to jump from one to the next..had four hammers set at all angles off to each other when I worked in Florida and I would walk from one to the next as needed...usually the need was between only two. Take an eight foot bar and set it centered on the dies of where you think they will go...will the end of the bar hit the other hammer?..if not then you are find...four foot out the far side of the dies is about all you would do anyway really. Be sure to check both orientations of the die as you may need the full length for some things. My 3B is on 8x4x4 foot deep concrete with the anvil below ground and on two layers of timber...so three foot of concrete below it....it still rattles the shop even though it is isolated with an inch of foam insulation lining the pit before pouring. I have run it full tilt in the past and it feels good..like a foot massage. Several years now and no indication of issue with the foundation or me. All things being equal I would use plate and make it simpler to move...but I would cut the floor to isolate the concrete that is there and place a rubber pad under the steel plate...and another under the hammer between it and the plate. I think my hammer die is door knob height..36" if I recall. I bend a bit to use it as I need to lean in (I'm five foot six), but I brace my leg to the frame and use my hip as the support for my rear hand..seems to work well with little back fatigue. This was a subject of great concern when I was planning and I have found that will drop in swages and different sized stock I have not had issues. It could have been six inches taller or shorter and I would have adapted. I do not like the idea of gravel..not at all. If you want comfort then lay down a rubber pad...they do not smell good when burning, but they can be rolled up and moved aside for carts and such...then again you can drop a plate in place if you wish over the gravel.... Self or pay: Do you NEED the 4B now? Can you plan an open window in the schedule for next month or July or August or whenever and do it then? With that press and the 3B I can not see how the 4B is curial to the shop's production at this time. Maybe putting this off and thinking about it for a bit will allow a solution to present itself? You said the 3B is just sitting there..can you move it to the side and still use it? In this way the "pit" or whatever can be made on your time while still using the 3B....just a thought. Ric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fosterob Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 The good thing about your "swimming pool" setup is that you could adjust the floor level around the hammer to get the height to where it works best for you. Just don't make the top part of the concrete base much larger than the machine footprint. I would do like Harrismetalsmith and put pavers or something to stand on. I had roadbase around mine and wore some deep holes where I was standing and ended up putting some cast iron grates in that area. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted April 23, 2011 Author Share Posted April 23, 2011 All good input... and so much to think about... I tend to be impulsive and and usually just do things... My motto of "lets do something, even if its wrong" is not always efficient but usually is effective... You do it, if its wrong you do it again... So at least your always either learning or moving forward.. I tend to get frustrated with people who have to think about things.. I have a good friend (who is also a blacksmith) and we have done many joint projects together.. He has to spend several days thinking about just about everything... He will call me and say "what do you think about doing this?" I'll say, Ok lets do it... then a few days later he will call me and say "What about doing it like this?" and I'll say Ok lets do it... :P The plan for today is to finish up the gate I am working on and then empty the forging area and start taping out squares on the floor to see if I can figure out an optimal layout... No small feat since the forging area consists of about 50,000lbs of machinery... I think all of my options are workable, I just want to see what are the most important considerations and which are going to most affect work flow and operation.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted April 23, 2011 Author Share Posted April 23, 2011 Self or pay: Do you NEED the 4B now? Can you plan an open window in the schedule for next month or July or August or whenever and do it then? With that press and the 3B I can not see how the 4B is curial to the shop's production at this time. Maybe putting this off and thinking about it for a bit will allow a solution to present itself? You said the 3B is just sitting there..can you move it to the side and still use it? In this way the "pit" or whatever can be made on your time while still using the 3B....just a thought. Ric No I dont need the 4B operational at the moment.. Mostly I want to get it set so I can start tearing into it and figure out what needs what I think part of it Ric is the fact that I have no experience with concrete and I have a local friend who just built a foundation for his 4B... he ended up having some pretty serious issues and spent a lot of time getting it done, simply because it was outside his scope of experience... Im in the same boat... I have some folks that I feel will do it pretty reasonably... $1500 to dig the hole, well its a days work... I could make $800 doing other things the excavator rental would be $300+... how much am I really saving? The concrete cost is $1200 of the $2000... so $800 for an expert to make sure its perfect? That $800 includes the labor to wheelbarrow in 12 yards of concrete 80 feet into my shop... I just cant see that for the headache its worth it to do it myself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNewman Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 I have limestone screenings around my hammer which pack reasonably hard but do not explode like concrete when you put hot steel on them. I do like it in some ways but I have considered pouring concrete there. The one nice thing about the screenings is I have lowered where I stand to effectively raise the bottm die. I wish I had mounted my hammer higher. Masseys are supposed to be set flush with the floor so that is what I did. My bottom die is 8" rather than the 4" it is supplosed to be so my bottom die height is 28" I wish it was up around 32". The Kinyon is up around 36" which I like ofr the really light hammer. I understand part of the reason for the 4B instalation is for the breaker point job. While I agree getting the 4b set up is important, I wonder if the 3b might not be faster for pointing breaker points. This may sound counter intuitive but would assume that the 3b strikes more blows per minute and it has lots of power to point 1" to 1 1/4" hex. The faster blows may end up faster than the heavier ram because you are not using all the power anyways for most of your blows. For swageing tong reins 1/2" and 3/8" after I forge them down to 1/2" octagon on the Massey I have found my Kinyon faster than the Massey because it hits much faster. It is also easier in that I can stand on the treadle while swageing rather than having to be realy light. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNewman Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 I think you are making the right decision to pay someone to do the concrete work. You are thinking like a businessman. When I did my installation I thought about renting a mini excavator as I used to operate one of them and a backhoe for a living. But I decided that it made more sense for me to be making money in the shop. The guy that did my excavation dug the hole with a mini excavator moved the dirt out of the shop with a bobcat and then hauled it away with a dump truck, he had a spot to dump the dirt. Getting rid of the dirt after I dug it out was would have probably cost me a significant amount of the money I would have saved by digging the hole myself. After forming the foundation I paid the guy who dug the hole to work with me pouring the concrete, because he is a regular concrete buyer he gets a better rate on the concrete he had all the tools including the concrete vibrator. As well he had a lot more experience pouring concrete than I did so it was well worth what I paid him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fosterob Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 I know a fair amount about concrete. Make sure that your concrete guy has a vibrator large enough to do the job, it is very important to have a dense pour for this application and vibrating removes the air pockets. You may consider something like a 7 sack mix for more strength as well. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWHII Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 I am considering pouring a foundation/slab that is sub grade in that whole area of the shop... still building the steel foundation and setting the 3B up on timbers and then filling the 10" or so that around the hammers with sewer rock... my whole shop is concrete and I think it would be nice to have some dirt/gravel floor around the forging area.... So I basically would have a 12' X 12' or so 10" deep swimming pool in the center of the shop with the two hammers sitting out in it and the rest filled with gravel... Instead of sewer rock and gravel,in your forge and hammer area I would use 1/4 minus crushed granite. It locks up good, packs hard but yet nice to work on. Sewer rock and gravel can get soupy and move around on you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWHII Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 Just wondering? How is your landlord feeling about putting a whole like that in? I guess it does not make a difference if you leave like you found it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric Furrer Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 No I dont need the 4B operational at the moment.. Mostly I want to get it set so I can start tearing into it and figure out what needs what I think part of it Ric is the fact that I have no experience with concrete and I have a local friend who just built a foundation for his 4B... he ended up having some pretty serious issues and spent a lot of time getting it done, simply because it was outside his scope of experience... Im in the same boat... My concrete guy said he would help and I got some advice from Patrick Nowack about the mix being an 8" slump and then adding a substace to bring it to a 4" slump (or was that a six brought to a three?)...concrete folk will correct my terms and they will know what you are asking for..its a heavy mix with an additive to make it flow well. I had a six bag mix which has held up well. From memory: I had all things prepared and the concrete guy said "yep call the truck in the morning...I'll be by to help after work".....concrete went in a 3PM......no worker...5:30..no worker.....7PM and many phone calls..he shows up....trawled the surface for ten minutes and said it will be another few days before the monolithinc pour cures well enough to do anything to it.....I went out at 10PM to water the top a bit as he suggested and could still poke my name in the top of the mix. Not sure if that is common, but had he come sooner he would have been able to do not much more than he did a 9PM. That was my first real experience with a large pour...seemed that the hardest thing was keeping the hole for the anvil (made a box of plywood with many weights in it to keep it from lifting). All in all not a big deal really. I'd do it again without thinking much if needs be. Ric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted April 25, 2011 Author Share Posted April 25, 2011 Anyone have any nazel foundation plans, pictures or info? I know there are Nazel blueprints floating around someplace... Not that I really need blueprints, just curious how others have done it... They will be there at 8am to cut the concrete, excavator shows up just after that... Id like to pour the foundation later in the week so I can put the shop back together Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryce Masuk Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 If I ever have any money again at least I know where to buy a power hammers have fun with it larry at least you have a plan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrismetalsmith Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Larry here is a picture of a copy my boss gave me of the Nazel 2B foundation plan. My foundation is actually bigger than this. When we dug down the hole kept back filling because of the furnace slag, so my foundation is 6 ft. Deep, and 8 by 8 footprint. My shop is located at a historic iron furnace. I just raised the hammer and put it on oak timbers because it was to low. Historicly they set these hammers lower as shown. Sorry I don't have a 4b blueprint. Multiply by 2???? Lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironstein Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Hey Monster, glad to hear you are booked with work. Sounds like what i call a "quality" problem! Being a rodbuster, and working around concrete and large formwork all the time, i would think this would be a fairly simple undertaking for someone as knowledgeable as you are. I think the part of the problem i am missing since i have never seen your set up is all the other equipment and how to place everything efficiently. I am no hammer expert, but why not pour a precast foundation that you could place where you need it with all the amenities needed? For example, you plan on moving at some point, and don't want to go through all the expense into something you can't take with you. Why not pour a heavily reinforced concrete pad with high strength fiber reinforced concrete to set the hammer on? You could build up a floor around the hammer out of wood to the height you require. I think someone suggested pouring a footing with eye bolts so you could remove it and take it with you. Just thinking outside the box. I suppose it kind of defeats the purpose since you still have the concrete floor underneath the pad to deal with. If you pour a big enough pad, say for two hammers, it may spread the weight enough to keep the floor safe. Just an idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted April 26, 2011 Author Share Posted April 26, 2011 Has anyone in the US ever bought the Frabreeza isolation pad? I called there 800 number early today and didn't even get a call back Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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