monstermetal Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 I have pretty much made my mind up that I will be building a steel fabricated foundation for my new 4B hammer... Both of the other big self contained hammers I have owned where one peice so I really dont have experience in the matter. I have looked at concrete vs steel and think for my situation the steel just makes more sense (mostly because I dont have a dedicated spot for the hammer to live nor do I own my building) Anyway I have two plans, the best of which is to use a 4'X 10' chunk of 3" as the base plate and then use a chunk of 1-1/2" under the hammer frame and use some 8" X 10" .500 tube I have as the stand off's between the two.... This plan is contingent on a friend trading me the 3" plate for a table I have.. I'd say at this point its better than 50/50 he will (he wants the 13' X 40" cast iron tee slot table pretty bad I think, its just a lot of work for him to move out the other table and build the base for the new one) The fall back plan is to use just the 1 -1/2 plate that I have as a base, the good chunk I have is 8' X 8' and a have a second 8' X 7' chunk thats got a serious bend in it ( it was used as a support for a road boring machine and it bent it up like it was 10ga) I also have 40' of 3" X 4" flat bar and thought about using that as stiffeners on the bottom of the 1 1/2 plate but it would put the thing up in the air a long ways... about the only other sizable chunks I have are a chunk of 2 3/4 plate about 18" X 6' and then a couple three foot squares of 4"... oh and I have three 36" chunks of 8" square ( I dont think any of that is of value for this project but thought I would throw it out, maybe someone has some radical idea?) Anyway I am hopping to get you all to share your experience in the hopes I can get it right the first time... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Sculpture Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Dig a hole pour some crete, when you done fill it in and move on. Feed the hammer the steel! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe-Wood Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Ditto Dillon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Double Ditto Dillon! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNewman Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Ralph Sproul in NH has some pictures on his web site of how he mounted his hammer. Ralph is a good guy if you called him I am sure he could let you what he did. Ralphs web site The page takes some time for all the pictures to load before you can see the Nazel pics. There is a picture of his Nazel set up at the bottom of this page. Nazel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted April 21, 2011 Author Share Posted April 21, 2011 Ive had three people (one that has a concrete foundation now) that steel is the way to go... The people who have steel say go steel (Ive talked to Bob Bergman about it a couple times, he is pro steel all the way) so.... ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fosterob Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Even if you make a 3" steel plate base it would be a good idea to have a substantial amount of concrete under it. Ii is really easy to form up a hole in the ground to have a slight draft (as in a casting) and pour your foundation with a lifting eye or two recessed in it. Pull it out of the ground when you leave. But if you do that the need for a steel plate base is gone. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted April 21, 2011 Author Share Posted April 21, 2011 Come on really? I ask for help and the help is "do something else?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fosterob Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Larry, I can post whatever pics you would like to see of the base of my 2b on its 3" plate. I think the time involved in making the base would be the same either way you go. A 4b is a hard hitter and even on a 3" plate would likely do damage to a concrete slab under it, I am guessing you will not use it for light work. Therefore why put the effort into a steel base when you will most likely have to do concrete work to support the machine? If it was me I would make the foundation removable so when you get your own place you can take it with you. How tall is the anvil on a 4B? Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted April 21, 2011 Author Share Posted April 21, 2011 From the bottom of the anvil to the bottom of the dovetail in the sow block is 34" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Sculpture Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 If this method has ever been used in the industry I would say go fer it, sure your not going to run it 24/7 but if you going skimp, do on the concrete side. 4 hrs. to cut a hole and remove dirt, pour a 1 yrd. footing (probably not enough). 4 hrs. to cut and set some timbers, I used RR ties (cheap rot resistant and I left them when I moved). 4 hrs. to frame up and pour a couple more yards around the timbers and up to hold your support beams for the hammer (I used some hardy board to isolate the timbers from the crete). 6 hrs. to set the support beams, anvil and hammer. $400-600 in material and a few days, been there done that. This next time I plan to spend more time and build it a bit heavier, but I hope its permanent this time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Have to admit I have zero experience with mounting a hammer in this manner. The first time I mounted my 200 pound Chambersburg I did a "proper" foundation. Later I just bolted it to timbers and corralled it with some angle iron bolted to the floor and could see little difference. I'd say "go for it". It'll work and you'll probably never know the difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fosterob Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 From the bottom of the anvil to the bottom of the dovetail in the sow block is 34" Is 34" going to give you a bottom die height of 45" or so? I figure 34" anvil+7" die+1" pad under anvil+3" plate base=45" If you do go the steel plate route I would at least saw cut the slab around the footprint of the machine. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Sculpture Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 I would trade ya the plate for a "proper foundation" I would even come back and patch it up when your done The only one I I ever seen like that was Jesse's. Bob's set up is in with one hammer out with the next, make sense to have them mobile. If you do go with the 41/2 tons of plate you could always set it out on the pavement on a hot sunny day(?) to lock her down, be easy to patch I had mine outside for a few years with no roof. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerrystagmer Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 I have to say Jesse's mount looks just awful and underbuilt. Is it? No idea but while we liked the general idea of it, I felt this installation was very under built. I think you have seen what we did as a solution but I can get better pics taken if you would like to see them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted April 22, 2011 Author Share Posted April 22, 2011 I don't like working in the rain and this is Seattle, she needs to be indoors Well if I have to dig a hole then I might as well do a concrete foundation, no sense in sticking a couple grand worth of steel in a hole Ugh just when I felt good about what I was doing you guys have to screw it all up with facts and rational thinking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGensh Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 Larry, Why not take John's sugggestion and give Ralph a call before you make a decision. I've run his 3b on the steel base and it works fine (though we weren't beating it full out either). He's had it set up that way now for a few years so there's some perspective there. I recently helped him retrieve a very early two piece 2B and I know he plans on mounting that one on a steel plate also. If you know Steve Parker call him for his opinion also. He's run Ralph's and his 4B at work is on a traditional foundation so he'd have a good perspective to advise you from. Steve G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted April 22, 2011 Author Share Posted April 22, 2011 They will be here with an excavator Monday morning to dig the hole, that is if the concrete cutter can make it by this weekend. $1500 to cut the slab and dig the hole, any that doesn't include trucking or disposal of the dregs. Estimated $2000 for concrete and finishing, of course that's me building the cage and installing the bar and bolts. I just ordered 6 6' chunks of 1-1/4 all thread and a 100 nuts and washers, another $250. I hope you guys are right, I owned all the bits to build a steel foundation, out of pocket expences would have been zero insted of $4000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Sculpture Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 Wow! who you getting to build this, NASA? $250 bucks for a mini excavator and saw for the day, $100 a yard for crete in my neck of the woods, thats plus my time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted April 22, 2011 Author Share Posted April 22, 2011 Well I am only doing this once, my 3B is not even bolted down let alone on a foundation. So that's for a 10'. X 12' hole 4 feet deep half will be poured flush with the floor for the 3 the other half the 4b foundation. 12 yards of mud and 12 yards of dirt to go away. So I guess if you look at it as $2000 per hammer it's not as bad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old N Rusty Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 A lot to put in a rented building! Any chance to buy it do so. I agree with Dillon, Do something , do it right , or don't do it at all. My $ .02 worth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted April 22, 2011 Author Share Posted April 22, 2011 I wish I could buy a building but it just doesn't make sense here, my building is 6600sq feet with 1/2 acre of fenced outside storage in a industrial area. To buy a building like that around Seattle your talking 1.5 mil and up. Even if I could get financed the payment would be quadruple what I pay in rent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Sculpture Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 Now all you need to do, is get that optical torch running so you can cut some plate! Glad your planting those beast, cant wait to see some forgin, Monster style... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrismetalsmith Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 I think mounting the hammer on a plate is the way to go. If I had a chance to mount my 2B again I would definitely go with the plate type setup. I like it for several reasons. 1. Like Larry, I don't own my own building and I know I will move eventualy, be it 5 or 20 years from now I like the idea of being able to move the machine all set up ready to go. 2. You have to put money in the foundation in one form or another, why not put some of the money into something you keep? 3. With this type of setup, you could move the hammer around inside the shop if needed. Granted your not going to shove it from corner to corner, but with the machine bolted down to the concrete pad there is no way to move it. I am very fussy with efficiency and ergonomics in my forging setups, so even the ability to tweak the hammer angle a few inches would be nice. Having said all this, I don't think setting any hammer on a regular concrete pad is a good idea. Even with the steel plate I think the area the hammer is going to set should be 12" to 24" thick. My ideal setup , would be to build a shop where the entire forging area is about 18" thick. I took one of my champion trip hammers and mounted it on a plate. It is really nice to have the ability to tweak the location of the machine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fosterob Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 Well I am only doing this once, my 3B is not even bolted down let alone on a foundation. So that's for a 10'. X 12' hole 4 feet deep half will be poured flush with the floor for the 3 the other half the 4b foundation. 12 yards of mud and 12 yards of dirt to go away. So I guess if you look at it as $2000 per hammer it's not as bad Make sure you like the height of your bottom dies. My 2b on its plate is about 41 1/2" above the floor and I think it a bit low sometimes. I'm 6' tall. We are just finishing a remodel of the house and one of the things I did was to put taller new cabinets so the kitchen counter is 39" instead of the standard 36". It makes a big difference not hunching over all the time. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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