scroll jigs

[FieryFurnace]

Ok so I need some help!

Once again I am hitting the craft fair circuit in a couple of months. We are going to be doing a decent number of very large festivals and I expect that I'll be moving several hundred dinner bells throughout the year.

With that in mind, I am trying to make my dinner bell making method as efficient as possible.

Right now it takes:
1 heat to taper
1 heat to round
2 heats to scroll
2 heats to bend

Occasionally I'll bugger up a scroll or get the triangle off, and it will take a couple more heats. (Maybe every ten bells I'll have to fix something.)

With the power hammer, I hope that I will be able to tone the taper and rounding down to one heat.
Then I'd like to make a scroll jig to take the scroll down to one heat with no mess-ups.

I'd like a hardy scroll jig that rotates. The kind where you put the metal into the jig, clamp it with a handle, and then rotate the jig, feeding the metal into and around the jig.

After a half day of forging and two piecs of scrap metal that where supposed to be scroll jigs, I'm requesting assistance. I have no problems making the scroll shape for the jig. It is the method of clamping the material to the jig so that it does not slip when I rotate the jig.

Here is a picture of what I am tring to accomplish.





I want to make that scroll on a jig.

Please submit pictures or drawings of the type of jig you would recommend. Whether hardy mount or vice, rotationaly or stationary!

In and of themselves, each of these steps aren't a big deal. but over the course of the year I'll save several hundred heats, plus arm wear in tapering and scrolling.

P.S. I'm also going to make a triangle jig to wrap the bells around. Since I don't have an O/A torch yet it will still take two heats to bend the bell, but I won't have any that I have to redo if I am bending them on a jig. (once again we are talking about one or two extra heats every ten bells.)

Thanks!

[Mainely,Bob]

Just a suggestion.You might want to look at the time it takes you to taper and then roll that scroll as opposed to doing something like a small leaf on the end as a termination detail.
The leaves would be more individually distinctive and look a lot less like a mass produced item.
With a power hammer you may find that forming a leaf is a quicker process than the scroll,especially if you use a spring die.
Just trying to help you maximize your profit.

PS-something that small and tight I would roll up by hand rather than use a jig.

[ianinsa]

I am going to sound like the totol plebian here and say 'all that can be done cold' why are you heating 'wire'.
the bends(for the triaqngle) could easily be done with a 'hoskiss' type bender. The taper and the scroll could easily be done cold. if you want PM me and I will send you sketches/pictures alternatively look at 'metalcraft' kit(many similar) for inspiration!

Bob has a point if you want it to look "blacksmithy" forge a leaf(to look hand forged) if not I can help you sell your soul!(PM ME)

Ian

[J M]

I have been considering something simular and the best thing i have come up with is based on a jig i saw here a few weeks ago. The idea is a cone shaped step spiral it would be more of a die than a jig. Put the end of the taper into a slot in the end of the cone then follow the spriral around. Then press it flat to end the creation.

[FieryFurnace]

Just a suggestion.You might want to look at the time it takes you to taper and then roll that scroll as opposed to doing something like a small leaf on the end as a termination detail.
The leaves would be more individually distinctive and look a lot less like a mass produced item.
With a power hammer you may find that forming a leaf is a quicker process than the scroll,especially if you use a spring die.
Just trying to help you maximize your profit.

PS-something that small and tight I would roll up by hand rather than use a jig.

I already do too many leaves! Leaves on paper towel bars, leaves on toilet paper bars, leaves on bath towel bars, leaves on fire pokers......ya get the idea! Don't get me wrong, I like leaves and I think I have a great method of making leaves (if I do say so myself,) but my booth is starting to look too much like a forest!

I've got some ideas I'm going to try to hammer out with the last bucket of coal I have.....I'll let you all know how it goes!

[John B]

I already do too many leaves! Leaves on paper towel bars, leaves on toilet paper bars, leaves on bath towel bars, leaves on fire pokers......ya get the idea! Don't get me wrong, I like leaves and I think I have a great method of making leaves (if I do say so myself,) but my booth is starting to look too much like a forest!

I've got some ideas I'm going to try to hammer out with the last bucket of coal I have.....I'll let you all know how it goes!

Hi Dave, If you are going for these or similar items, go gas, you won't be able to keep pace with yourself, Taper and scroll the scroll the ends first ( do you have to point it, it would still look cool as a ribbon end) you can then bend the corners cold using scroll wrenches,



This picture is of a glass holder to stick in the ground, but will give you an idea of what a ribbon end scroll would look like, along with the use of scroll wrenches/bending forks

Or a pair of simple jaws set at a gap to suit the metal, then a pivoted handle/lever with the pivot adjacent to the back guide/jaw, and pull to a set angle would also work


Another method to bend the bar cold would be to have a plate with three pegs on strategically placed in a triangular configuration to produce the shape you require, and a handle to drop over the pegs, to be used as a bending arm

The handle to have a hole drilled towards one end, and a peg welded so that the distance from the edge of the hole to the edge of the pin is slightly greater than diameter of the bar you are using,

Place your scrolled end up to the first peg which will act as a length stop to the first bend,

Drop the handle over the first pin along, and pull around to bring the bar into contact with the next pin

Remove handle and replace over next pin, pull round again until free end is in position reguired, (you could insert a stop pin here)

If these don't appeal I am sure you will come up with something to suit Edited January 13, 2011 by John B

[nuge]

Use bigger stock! They will look nicer, ring way better and not be much harder to make now that you have the hammer. Try some 5/8 or even 3/4.

[Ramsberg]

Hey Dave,

Have you ever made a Treble Clef Chime? Here is a link to its description.

http://www.anvilfire.com/iForge/

It is item 23 entitled Cleft

I used to make them out of 1/2" square on the diamond, the flag end is also something that you could consider for your triangle dinner bells. To my taste they look 10 times better with square on the diamond(the Treble Clef Chime) a bit tricky though.

Caleb Ramsby

[John B]

Hi Dave, this is the type of set up I was trying to explain for bending the corners, this particular jig is one I used to use to make curtain rings to hang over pole with the support underneath as used in bay windows, it is the second stage when I use it for that purpose, however it is to merely illustrate a point,It also be used to make S or C hooks.

Bits are welded to a piece of angle and held in the leg vise


The forks were made from a bit of flat bar the prongs were made from the centre pins of the air lifting springs/dampers used for opening rear windows, they also make decent punches.

This just drops into the centre hole in the boss, and is used to pivot the handle as you bend the metal around the boss.


Just drop the scrolled end in up to a stop, insert the handle and pull it around to the desired shape



If you make the backing plate longer you can get a fixed length for each of your bends from each other allowing you to make your triangles.

Hope this helps you, or anyone else on the site. Feel free to ignore or adapt, basic design can be adapted to many situations where a smooth radius based bend is needed on multiple articles

[KYBOY]

Dave we dont use that deep of a scroll on our dinner bells..It looks real nice though We make a fairly simple say 3/4 scroll on both points opposite each other..Our dinner bells are 1/2" round. you can do each point in one heat usually. Two heats you have the scroll.Then make the triangle bends..Something to think about..

[Glenn]

Dave, I usually make several dinner bells at a time. I make the decoration on the ends first. Then I use a bender and make the angles cold. Straighten and get it into one plane and your done. You can cold bend 1/2 inch, but anything larger works better when hot.

Play with it a bit to get the diameter of the cold bend right.

[Rhrocker]

Dave, where'd you go? What do you think of these ideas, and did you experiment some with your idea?

[FieryFurnace]

Sorryguys! Been busy dealing with the compressor and I took sick yesterday and just been laying around.

John B
I like both of those jigs, especially the second. I don't think that is going to cut it on the dinner bell scrollbut it looks like just the thing for my dinger loops. I'll have to try my hand at that as soon as I have my next tool day.
I also like the idea of the bending jig for the entire bell. What would be real handy is a large piece of plate with holes drilled, grid fashion, all over it. Then you could have some drop-in pins so you could bend a large variety of shapes on it. I've got a 2 1/2' square of 3/8 plate. would that be of a decent size for something like that?

KYBOY
Iunderstand the great time efficency in the 1/2 or 3/4 scrolls and I also understand the ease of the flat scrolls. In 3/8 I could probably do each end in one heat.
However, I have yet to see another dinner bell with the deep scroll like I do, and I like that! No offence, but I've seen a lot of flare scrolls, 3/4 scrolls, leaves, etc, but never a double revelution scroll which is what mine amounts to.
I'm not trying to be boastful or cocky.....I just like being a little different. I'm an odd-ball!


I haven't tried bigger stock much. I think I've made two 1/2" bells. The 3/8 that I use gives me a nice chime and that gets the ladies which usually preside over the wallet. This year I am going to be adding a large size 1/2" bell so I can get the single men too.

I haven't tried the treble cleft yet but that looks like a fun project. I may give that a wirl and add it to my stock items list.

I did end up making a jig that worked quite well. it was a cone shaped jig, the center being higher than the outside. I used a square wedge pin to hold the stock in place, wrapped the taper around it and then flattened, all in one heat.
The jig tiself was not shaped correctly though and so I did not like the resulting scroll. I think I am going to roll a scroll that I like, and then make the jig to the scroll nstead of just trying to eyeball the jig.

[KYBOY]

No, I dont blame you..Whatever works for you..We have tried about a half dozen different dinner bell variations over the years and one never sold better than the other so we just go with fast/easy.. People have liked the 1/2" over the 3/8" though..harden that 1/2" dinner bell in super quench and its got some serious pitch when rang! The vast majority of our sales come from Axes,tomahawks and some knives. Lisa does the craft fairs but honestly its more for advertising than sales. She does sell a crap load of dinner bells and camping tri-pods though..

[FieryFurnace]

I've been doing fairly well at craft shows! We have been doing some rather high-end shows and I carry around probably about 50 stock items so maybe that helps. One of the last shows I did I had something like $800 in on-site sales and did another $700-$800 in customs. If every show were like that! LOL

I've found with a show that's got about 100+ booths and around 5000 attendees I sell a dozen dinner bells more or less. The shows we are booking this year have 15-20,000 attendees so I hope sales go up proportionaly! :huh:

[dablacksmith]

a few ideas for bells ... you might try hearts , treble cleft, apple (with worm clanger) and specialty my strangest one was a butterfly (was sinninging in a gada da vida the whole time) also try some small ones useing leftover broken garage door springs (free material and the carbon makes um ring better)call the small bells tea bells and they go good ..i agree with others that 1/2 is better than 3/8 for sales .. ive made bolth and sold um side by side and the 1/2 sold better faster and for more ...good luck with the shows ...ive done a few over the years still looking for a few more really good ones!

[FieryFurnace]

a few ideas for bells ... you might try hearts , treble cleft, apple (with worm clanger) and specialty my strangest one was a butterfly (was sinninging in a gada da vida the whole time) also try some small ones useing leftover broken garage door springs (free material and the carbon makes um ring better)call the small bells tea bells and they go good ..i agree with others that 1/2 is better than 3/8 for sales .. ive made bolth and sold um side by side and the 1/2 sold better faster and for more ...good luck with the shows ...ive done a few over the years still looking for a few more really good ones!

I'm going to sell em side by side this year too! We'll see how it goes! Hearts are an intersting idea too and I can make hearts fairly quickly!

I like the idea of a "tea bell" too. Along the same lines, I started using scrap 3/8 and 1/2 in round and square to make spoons for demonstations at craft shows. Never thought anyone would buy them, but I'll usually say something about it would make an interesting piece in a china cabinet, and I'll sell them off the anvil! Craziest thing!