Rolling shapes into tube

[ianinsa]

I picked this up in the middle East and other than using a large version of a modified pipe cutter I can't figure out how this is done easily? And it comes in long lengths!
Ian

[Larry H]

It looks simple enough, top and bottom fuller or guillotine tool ? That's the way I've done it when making candle holders

[bigfootnampa]

A guillotine won't get that smooth an effect... I think that's worked on a lathe with some sort of squeeze tongs. It might even be cold swaged. Oh yeah if it comes in long lengths they probably have a set of dies that swages it as it turns. Mechanized and repeatable.

[ianinsa]

It's definitely rolled in a device like a twister and most likely done cold it's the swage/clamping/squeezing tool I am interested in.
Ian

[Dillon Sculpture]

How bout a self centering vise, with your dies, should have enough leverage.

[John McPherson]

Pipe beading and swaging machines have been around for 150+ years, starting with hand powered units for tinplate. Every muffler shop has a light duty one to do tube end work.

This was done on a production scale with a hydraulic machine. Like everything else, they come out of China now.

[ianinsa]

John,
I've become quite good at making/copying machines to do certain processes I find that once I have it, we can create a market and then only can we afford to buy the like of Hebo's and their chinese copies............I would like to follow the same process with this product. Our market is quite small but if one gets up to say 8-10 tons a month then it's worth spending the big bucks.
Ian

[John McPherson]

Ian, small is relative. I work for one of the largest welding colleges in the Southeast USA. We don't buy that much metal a year. But again, they are mostly welding small coupons.

[ianinsa]

John,

Sadly even a relatively cheap chinese machine could set you back say $20 000(on your factory floor) and if I make $0.3/kg with our interest rate at 14.5%(on a good day) if i did 8T a year I might just not be able to justify the spend.

Ian

[nuge]

Your pullmax type nibbler would do that well, but slowly.

[Mainely,Bob]

Ian,are you looking for something that will just be used occasionally or something for production work?Skilled,semi-skilled or braindead operator?
The process is just as you mentioned,rollers that deform the tube.I would think you`d need at least a pair,one to press and one to back that pressure and keep the tube from bending/deforming.
A skilled worker could work from an example hung within line of sight.A braindead slug will need something that locks into place at every station and limiting devices so the slug can`t engage the rollers till the tool is locked in station and doesn`t over tighten and part the tubing.

The big question is,why are you attempting to compete with the cheesy manufacturing rather than importing it and making a fortune?Have you learned nothing from the US?Capitalism is all about letting others take the risks,figure out how to produce it cheaply on the backs of 3rd world labor and then raking in the profits while doing nothing more than shuffling paper and setting up off shore bank accounts to avoid the taxes.Get with the program man,that`s where the REAL money`s at!

BTW-That is some seriously ugly stuff you are considering making.It`s a slap in the face to all skilled metalworkers everywhere.Should sell like hotcakes,good luck keeping it in stock.Pick up the phone,Wal-mart is calling. :rolleyes:

[ianinsa]

Bob,
In most respects you are so right!!!!!!!
However, if you don't provide employment you can't get chipped when poor guys with hungry children mug(never hapened to me)burgle(been burgled 8 times)pinch your car(we've 'lost'16 cars)hijack you(twice).
We have a large contingent of 'bakkie(pickup)brigade' that do what is called "wrought iron work" not an anvil nor forge in the bunch! But then they do 2 x 6 meter gates for US$200/300 fitted.

Not my market and I can't compete yet somehow we have to generate income to employ people hence trying to find a way whilst exportin the 'real thing' and that market aint exactly chipper at present.

We will probably even start rolling corregated iron by July just to generate cashflow!

Ian

[doc]

Ian
How about you try something on the lines of a steady rest on a lathe? Where the rollers are forced against the tube and the tube is held between centers.

[Timothy Miller]

I forge tools out of my scrap it is actually more profitable per hour than doing ornamental work but the polishing is rough. I understand the ethics of tiring to keep people working but if your off by a few percent on high volume you can dig a big hole. It least the correlated iron will put a roof over someones head.

[Mainely,Bob]

Ian,you never did say what category operator you had in mind.
How are we supposed to proceed with designing the machine for you if we don`t know these things?(he says half seriously,having 2 sons and a daughter of his own who span a rather wide skill and ability set)

BTW-I`m all about generating jobs rather than waving to the kids as they depart for greener pastures. :)

[Jeff Seelye]

I picked this up in the middle East and other than using a large version of a modified pipe cutter I can't figure out how this is done easily? And it comes in long lengths!
Ian

This tool is used for a different purpose, but the principle is the same and could be adapted.You can probably make something that fits your lathe.

[ianinsa]

Bob,
My guys regularly surprize me one day incredably capable/conciensious/lateral thinking etc. etc. the next a slobering laxidasical moron. And never in any predictable order. Smart skilled and talented, but not always. So he says smiling," to cater for the off days" it should preferably be simple to operate!

I am leaning towards something that I can clip onto my twister, and use the slide bed as a rail ala steady rest but with a clamp, unclamp rollerset.

Jeff,
Using the roll grovers principal for the chuck would work a treat, thanks.

Ian

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Get a large pipe cutter and make a rounded roller to replace the cutter wheel. My Dad did this to groove some copper water pipe.

To do this you will need something to back up the pressure needed to deform the tube. They could be flat rollers like on a pipe cutter, or all of them could be form wheels.

If you make a tool to do this, a camming arrangement could be used on the moving roller to speed things up. With a long handle it may not take that much effort to do this, although that will depend on the tubing wall thickness.

[ianinsa]

Leverage, cam? yea, I like the way you think
Ian

[Mainely,Bob]

Can you fab a carriage that will slide the length of your twister?If you can then I`d make one that has a square hole dead center in the ways and that would be the retainer/lock for the tool.The tool itself would have rollers(2 backing and 1 forming to triangulate and center the pipe) that you can change according to the profile you need and size pipe.As Biggun said,make it like a large pipe cutter except instead of a T handle advancing the rollers have a long lever and toggle linkage push the forming roller into the work,look at a push type toggle clamp to see what I mean.A long horizontal bar on the body will help control the tool and the lever rod will lay on the control rod when it`s completed it`s travel(like reins on tongs).Like the push type toggle clamp once you have the tool dialed in by way of a threaded adjustment rod you lock down the nut.
That square hole in the carriage is for a second square bar welded to the body in a vertical position and that bar stops the tool from twisting/turning but the sliding fit allows it to self adjust for height.You could also allow the tool to self adjust in the horizontal of you`re doing different size pipe that requires movement in that direction.Height adjustment could be either a locking collar or simply stacked plates with square holes in them to get the tool height close yet just below center of the pipe.In use the rollers should lift the tool enough to make it float and center itself while the square bar engaging the carriage keeps it roughly in place and prevents twisting.
The operator moves the tool to where he wants a detail to be,locks the carriage and then pulls the toggle lever down till it meets the tool control bar and and detail is then done.Unlock and move carriage and repeat.
If you trust your guys enough you could even go with either hydraulic or air over hydraulic with the controls on the handle.Added risk but faster if your folks are "having a good day".

Pull the crimping tool and leave the carriage at one end of the ways and you have your twister back.
Hope this was helpful.I have some experience with "make do" situations and cheap bosses,I are one. :D

[ianinsa]

Thanks Bob,
As Always you seem on top of the game! Have you ever thought of becoming a teacher? Work half day for about 200 days in a year and you get to impale half wits like myself with sharp barbs You know those too dense to take offence

Best Regards
Ian

[Mainely,Bob]

Thanks Bob,
As Always you seem on top of the game! Have you ever thought of becoming a teacher? Work half day for about 200 days in a year and you get to impale half wits like myself with sharp barbs You know those too dense to take offence

Best Regards
Ian

Actually,I love teaching.You should have seen me during my Drill Sgt days.I`d ask questions like; "Private, are you as stupid as you want to be?"
"Recruit,"I`m not sure, drill Sgt."
Me,"It`s very simple Rockhead,you have either reached your targeted level of stupidity or there are higher levels of stupidity to which you aspire,now which one is it.Choose one and go with it,disregarding the consequences looming on the horizon like a funnel cloud.Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain"...
I just loved references to old movies like "The Wizard of Oz".

The point was usually to both get the targeted individual to think but also to get as many of the other recruits in our happy band of brothers(and sisters) to forget themselves,grin or chuckle and end up in the "front lean and rest" pushing the ground away from themselves repeatedly.Some times when I was really on my game my fellow instructors would be overwhelmed and have to walk off around the corner to have a good laugh(don`t let the recruits see you lose your military bearing).The days when my peers kept their distance were good days indeed,I knew I was "in the zone". B)