kerrystagmer Posted May 19, 2010 Share Posted May 19, 2010 So as you guys know there is a little hammer heading my way. I figured it was time to start a separate thread rather then continue the gentle hijack of the other one. It now belongs to Mike L. and will be set up here in our shop. The current intention is to move the Beaudry #8 to what will be the back wall of the shop and place the Nazel in its place. The seller stated that this hammer had been a trade-in on a Nazel 6B but I dont think they gave anymore info. If anyone knows anymore about it please let me know!. I talked to the gents at Postville Blacksmiths shop today in relation to moving and general weights of the individual pieces. I have arranged for a 15,500 lb capacity forklift with pick up and delivery here rather then try to use a catapillar 966G that they have on site next door at the quarry. While the 966G has the lifting power I was concerned with its ability to lift high off the trailer and control in setting the hammer in place. On top of that its huge! It will be easier to manuver the forklift. They also recommended to wait to hunt for dies till we have the hammer were we can take accurate measurements of the dovetails as they are often altered from factory. I think our current idea is to purchase material to make a new set and cut the dovetails here once we inspect the hammer. I use a local heat treater that can handle hardening in just a couple days on parts like this. They already have harden hammer dies for 2 different big drop hammer shops (Victory Racing Plate and formerly for Kirk-Stieff Silver) I also spent some time with Dave Hammer at the BGCM's Blacksmith Day's in Westminster MD this weekend. We mainly talked about foundations and issues if the hammer has been abused. Currently we have a 10hp rotary converter in the shop that will have to be increased or purchase a big VFD. We were beyond capacity anyway so its time to upgrade. Pics of the hammer from the ebay auction... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sask Mark Posted May 19, 2010 Share Posted May 19, 2010 For as little as I know of big power hammers, that looks like a cool machine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fosterob Posted May 19, 2010 Share Posted May 19, 2010 That looks good, I saw that on ebay and it looked like a nice machine, I am curious about how much its actual weight is? Congrats on your new machine, let us know how it runs. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerrystagmer Posted May 19, 2010 Author Share Posted May 19, 2010 The guys at Postville said the 15,500 overall from the spec sheet was realistic. They said plan for the anvil to be in the 5-7 range. I think with this lighter style anvil it might be lower on the anvil side. Either way I'm renting a machine that could handle it assembled if need be. Plus the 966G will be our backup if we are in trouble. I think its rating is like 34,000 before tipping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 19, 2010 Share Posted May 19, 2010 Can you get three phase? After a while it might make sense to bite the bullet and pay for it to be run to the shop. BTW blue is my tool colour so just have them drop it off at my shop! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Furrer Posted May 19, 2010 Share Posted May 19, 2010 My 3B was 13,500 and change...have an overweight ticket to prove it..the Nazel/Lobdel literature has it at 10,500 or so. If you are generating three phase be careful with large VFD's as they can create harmonics in the line coming into your shop and if you do that the local power company will be around with a large bill for the damages...a very large bill. I have a 30hp converter from these guys: http://www.americanrotary.com/rotary-phase-converters.html running my 10Hp nazel motor and other things. Tell them I sent you and they may knock a bit off the price. I suggest bypassing the air to the tup on start-up by installing a ball valve so the compressor does not work hard at start-up....even with my 3:1 ratio in cold weather its a hard start...by twisting the valve open it becomes a simpler process and once up to speed shut the valve and the tup moves. Ric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerrystagmer Posted May 19, 2010 Author Share Posted May 19, 2010 3 phase is close by but I'll bet costs would be very high to have service run here. I have a 10 hp rotary setup now that works great but we have way too much stuff run off it. Its ok when there are only one or 2 of us here but on busy days I know we are taxing stuff on startup. My Father (inlaw) is an electrical engineer specializing in control panels for motor starting (mostly concrete plant and pumping stations) so I should be ok there. He actually just took in VFD's on tradin for a customer that might do the trick. Regardless of the incomming power an air unloader for startup just seems a smart way to do it. You are still spinning up the flywheel and piston but not under pressure. Do those guys offer just the electronics? Big motors are very easy to come by in Baltimore. I'll bet a thousand or more is the motor price alone. Most of my stuff is 7.5 or smaller right now but my idler is 10hp. I've been very happy with the unit I have but don't know if they are still in business. Just as long as the main hammer isnt over 15K I should be ok. I think I have a safe margin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Larson Posted May 19, 2010 Share Posted May 19, 2010 Kerry, I might be in the market for a big VFC. Please keep me ion mind when you talk to your father-in-law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Hammer Posted May 19, 2010 Share Posted May 19, 2010 Richard Furrer.... I am interested in learning about the modification you made to unload the air compressor during startup on a Nazel. Could you provide a picture, diagram or sketch? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted May 19, 2010 Share Posted May 19, 2010 On the linkage side of the hammer, between the valves, should be a pipe plug. Just replace it with a short pipe and a ball-cock. You can see it pretty clearly just above the lower valve in your first picture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
781 Posted May 20, 2010 Share Posted May 20, 2010 Congradulations on the hammer When it is up and running please let me know how it is at 781@mchsi.com A couple of years ago I would have ran you much higher on the price. If this was the recent Ebay purchase my quote was $1200 for shipping and I figured another $1000 for a set of dies. Then I would have needed to add on to the building ect. Power would not have been a problem as I have 3 ph 200 amp service but no access to a large fork lift and the trucker would have wanted it off as soon as he arrived. Which is why I stopped $100 less than your bid and did not run you up more. As it is I dont use the hammers I have now but It would have been nice to have to bring in Steve Parker or even get Clifton to drive out for a workshop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Hammer Posted May 20, 2010 Share Posted May 20, 2010 But... but.... but.... 781, it would have been such a neat addition to the estate sale..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerrystagmer Posted May 20, 2010 Author Share Posted May 20, 2010 I'm in the midst of an estate sale now.. ( not mine, not yet!) PLEASE PLEASE write stuff down and keep your manuals in one place! Seems that unloader valve should have a whistle attached to it! Will do John, let me know what your looking for size wise as well. They get stuff in and out of there all the time. He is George's brother if you remember George P. from Jerusalem Mill. I'd love to see your self contained hammer prototype as well. How long ago did you build it? Someone here was talking of bidding up into the 9500$ range and we expected it to go up up up. Thankfully not the case. I dont know the shipping quote yet but the forklift is only just under $600.00 delivered to my shop. If I had more time to unload we could use the big Cat and save even that. Its not too far away so heres hoping for the same price range in shipping as you were quoted, where are you 781? I buy alot of 4130 AQ P&O and should be able to get material (4140 or 4340) for dies from the same supplier. Admiral quoted me somewhere OVER $3.60 a lb the last time I called. My current supplier (Benedict-Miller in NJ) was $1.10 a lb. The trick is to keep your purchases over 1000 lbs at a time. What size should I expect to need? Looks like a couple of saw anvils!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted May 20, 2010 Share Posted May 20, 2010 You can get a 4 X 7 top die in that, barely. The standard 3-1/2 seems a little narrow. 4" is getting a little too thick to get decent hardness from 4140. I've had real good luck with 4340 @ Rc 50-52. The factory dies are about 40Rc. They're only about 60 pounds each. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerrystagmer Posted May 20, 2010 Author Share Posted May 20, 2010 Grant- How tall? I assume it might be installation dependent based on sowblock to ram distance? Chromolys seem to be very happy at 50Rc and its something I'm comfortable with. The transition between 47 and 50 is where I feel it goes from just being tough to having a 'hard' feel on bar, much more then 52 is where you can chip it on hard hits. So I agree 100% there. I'm currently paying $125 flat rate on hardening if I send them out to the big furnaces or salt bath. As my oil bath is only in a 7 inch pipe (15 gal in an old oxygen tank for swords ) its probably best for them to go out to a larger bath for quench. As I said these guys are hardening dies for drop hammers on a regular basis. I should make dies for the Beaudry #8 at the same time anyway as it has unusual combination dies set up for jack hammmer points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Furrer Posted May 20, 2010 Share Posted May 20, 2010 Grant- How tall? I assume it might be installation dependent based on sowblock to ram distance? Chromolys seem to be very happy at 50Rc and its something I'm comfortable with. The transition between 47 and 50 is where I feel it goes from just being tough to having a 'hard' feel on bar, much more then 52 is where you can chip it on hard hits. So I agree 100% there. I'm currently paying $125 flat rate on harening if I send them out to the big furnaces or salt bath. As my oil bath is only in a 7 inch pipe (15 gal in an old oxygen tank for swords ) its probably best for them to go out to a larger bath for quench. As I said these guys are hardening dies for drop hammers on a regular basis. I should make dies for the Beaudry #8 at the same time anyway as it has unusual combination dies set up for jack hammmer points. The Lit I have on the 4B says dies are 3 1/2 x 9 with no info on height...height is based a bit on where you place the anvil...what with the "bottoming out" tick line on the ram. I mounted mine 1.5" above that line so I had the ability to regrind the dies if needs be. My new new 3B dies are 4 1/4 wide x 7 1/2 wide x 7" tall..matched set top and bottom. The old dies (came with hammer) were 50/50 flat and drawing 3.5x8x7. I like the largest dies I can fit..though some issue can be made about placing too much load on the guides by working that extra bit forward on the larger dies.... 4B Lit I have Gross of 13,640 hammer 8712 anvil 4928 but again...my 3B was over 13,000 gross. If you look at second count 48-51 on the stainless 4" cube video you can see the bypass valve being turned. I'll shoot a photo of it and post it..as Grant said just come off that plug with pipe and a valve. Channel the blast away from you. http://www.doorcountyforgeworks.com/Videos.html VFD...do look into that as I heard about the harmonics from the PHD electrical engineer down the block and had this echoed by the regional power rep for this area of Wisconsin. American phase converters (gentec): Yes, they will sell just the capacitors, boxes etc without the motor. Their motors are new Baldors without a shaft so no need to make a housing etc. and they are quiet. Before I bought one I asked around and some folk said they had converters which had to be in another room due to noise...not so with this. I can only tell its on when all the other tools are off...well, that and the little light on the panel. The thing is running in the above video so before I start the hammer you may hear the hum of the converter, thought the forge is louder I think. Ric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerrystagmer Posted May 20, 2010 Author Share Posted May 20, 2010 I keep the light on on my Gorton Mill so I know when the 3 phase is on! Even though you can hear it, it's not bothersome and I hate random white noise like fans. As all our sanders and buffers are also 3 phase its on pretty much all the time. I might buy them (dies) 'big enough' as I have to buy 4130 plate right away. I'd hate to have to plow them off an inch but can do it if needed. At least then they would be cheap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Larson Posted May 20, 2010 Share Posted May 20, 2010 Kerry, I built my experimental self-contained in 2002 and until about a year ago it sat in the forging area. Ric Furrer called it funky. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Furrer Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 Ric Furrer called it funky. :-) Did I? That seems so long ago John....I'll be 40 in a few weeks and the memory is already going. I remember it had a bit of a harmonic dance when it ran fast. I also remember your P9 pullmax as well..which you were not interested in selling to me..had to find one on my own. Ric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 I'm in the midst of an estate sale now.. ( not mine, not yet!) PLEASE PLEASE write stuff down and keep your manuals in one place! Seems that unloader valve should have a whistle attached to it! Will do John, let me know what your looking for size wise as well. They get stuff in and out of there all the time. He is George's brother if you remember George P. from Jerusalem Mill. I'd love to see your self contained hammer prototype as well. How long ago did you build it? Someone here was talking of bidding up into the 9500$ range and we expected it to go up up up. Thankfully not the case. I dont know the shipping quote yet but the forklift is only just under $600.00 delivered to my shop. If I had more time to unload we could use the big Cat and save even that. Its not too far away so heres hoping for the same price range in shipping as you were quoted, where are you 781? I buy alot of 4130 AQ P&O and should be able to get material (4140 or 4340) for dies from the same supplier. Admiral quoted me somewhere OVER $3.60 a lb the last time I called. My current supplier (Benedict-Miller in NJ) was $1.10 a lb. The trick is to keep your purchases over 1000 lbs at a time. What size should I expect to need? Looks like a couple of saw anvils!! Yeah I was the fool who threw out that $9500 number... I dont know that I would have actually gone that high, I was thinking at the time it might dissuade someone from jumping in if they thought I was prepared to spend that kind of money. After hearing from Ric about the current and previous contact with the seller I pretty much made up my mind I didn't want to risk more than about $5000... The last Nazel I bought that had problems cost me almost nine grand to make work over three years.... I figured Id rather spend more money on a hammer I knew the history of rather than take a chance... I hope its a good hammer and a new set of dies will be all it takes to put her to work... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 OK well, I had the numbers wrong, sorry. Even at 4" wide you can get nearly 9" long. Seems to me the factory dies were 8 - 9 inches tall. I put an extra sow block in mine so I only needed 4 - 5 " tall, but I could take it out and put the stock dies back in. Dies I ran for 25 years were 6 X 7. Depends on what you mean by chrome-moly. To me that means 4130, 4140 or 4150. 43xx is chrome-moly-nickel. I used to have a lot of 4150 drops and made most of my tooling with it. Loved that stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerrystagmer Posted May 21, 2010 Author Share Posted May 21, 2010 I guess I was rolling 43 series in with the 41 mentally mostly because of same suppliers and recommended uses. 4130 is great stuff if your under 3/4 " but once you cross that thickness your ability to harden to the center drops off. I havent really played with 43 series myself due to extra cost and honestly lack of need! Someone has pointed out to me that the plate on the left side of the casting is an odd cover likely hiding a repair. I'd like to hear thoughts on this from those who know more then me! Looks like sunday I'll be laying out a foundation for the new location of the Beaudry. I'll have to get it moved before the memorial day weekend as I think the idea is to start on the Nazel location then. I respond good to crisis so having a crazy soon deadline for this will get me moving faster. I think I can get a smaller forklift down here from the quarry to move it and have a big pile of concrete here already so I wont be too much more out of pocket. Suddenly 5,500 lbs sounds light... Turns out I have a driver going up to pick up steel on Thursday so I better get my ass in gear on that as well. If anyone is in this area and wants in on my steel buy just let me know. I do this 3-4 times a year so if you can't do it now, it will happen again late summer. They carry only 4130, 4140 and 4340 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 Oh yeah, looks to be a patch. Probably threw a rod at some time in the past. Not the factory access cover either. Shouldn't hurt anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerrystagmer Posted May 21, 2010 Author Share Posted May 21, 2010 They are pricing me 4 by 8 by 8 at $4 a lb (about 65 lbs) for 4340 seem right>? I've never priced or bought it before. I know 4340 is much more then 4130 and these will have to be sawn off of 4" plate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNewman Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 I have been paying around $1.50/lb for 4340 from EMJ. BUT that is for round bar not cut from plate. Is your Beaudry big enough to rough them out or maybe you could buy 4" pieces of 12" round and saw cut it square. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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