Are we losing things

[thecelticforge]

Do you ever get the feeling that a lot of skills that a blacksmith needs are being lost because our traditional methods of education are all but gone?

I first ran into this years ago when a man came to my forge and was showing me a callus on his thumb. He explained he got it because he placed his thumb over the handle to better guide his strokes. The subject cam up because I was holding my hammer handle in the middle instead of on the end like a carpenter.

He was explaining to me that I could get greater force by holding it on the end.

I have noticed that almost no one uses files much any more either. I may be an old geezer, but I feel learning in a more traditional manner was a great boon for me and has helped me a lot now that I use more modern equipment and techniques.

Feed back?

[Ferrous Beuler]

I agree. Old timers to learn the tried and true from are becoming few and far between indeed and "modern ways" are fast becoming the norm in a trade that has seen very little change in almost six thousand years.
If you are reaching for a mig to tack weld that silhouette which you had made by the shop with the plasma cutter onto a weather vane you have also tacked together from Kane & Son components you have to stop and ask yourself, "am I still blacksmithing"?

[thecelticforge]

I sure hope so, because I am using Kayne and Son stuff to speed up production. I make a LOT of candle holders in the Pennsylvania/Dutch tradition. But I am glad I learned the way I did even though it took a bit longer than in the old days. As far as I know, I am the youngest one trained in the traditional way; I am almost 44.

[Iron Clad]

It's interesting that you bring up thumb placement while hammering. I had a long talk with Peter Ross about this once a few years ago. I noticed that while he hammers hard with full swings he places his thumb to the side of the handle, and while he hammers less hard his thumb usually is on top of the handle.

I do not believe it's good practice to have ones thumb on top of the handle when hammering hard to displace lot's of material, and it seems Peter Ross agreed with this. Now for accuracy with lighter blows it seems having your thumb on top of the handle is a better idea. This is the way I have been hammering for years, works for me.

To me, it seems that people don't take the time to learn how to hammer properly from the start. While first learning years ago at Ft. Vancouver's blacksmith shop, one of our first apprentice projects was to hammer 12 feet total of 1/2" round stock into 3/8" square stock with square corners and NO hammer marks. The main goals were hammer control, proper swing, accuracy, etc. Peter Ross also told me once that a good smith will not leave hammer marks all over the piece unless texturing was the goal.

[dablacksmith]

well i havnt been able to train under a oldtimer very often . a few classes with peter ross and a few other classes but i have picked up a few of the old skills ... most dont learn them cause it does take time to get them right.i am one of those smiths that does mostly traditional work but also uses some of the modern ... I would have a hard time buying all my components welding it together and calling it hand forged but... i use plasma cut out leaf blanks and other components then forge them and do call it hand forged. it really depends on what your looking for and what your willing to settle for... and that can change with time... it takes real determination to do things the old way versus weld it together and few are willing to pay for the difference . give you a example a friend who uses dies and presses to make things has a cactus blank he runs thru a die to make a nice cactus for a decoration . i asked about it and he gave me one of his lazer cut out blanks to play with .i spent about 1 1/2 hr with chizel and punches to make a nice looking cactus piece ... i have it in the shop and many people want to buy it till i tell them how much.. if i could make the same item in 15-20 minutes they would sell like hotcakes .there are places to use the traditional methods but you have to find the right niche .if your trying to make a liveing at this then it is a lot tougher to stick to the traditional methods approach .but the thing that really sells any blacksmith is the ability to make a one off piece and if your useing traditional methods its real hard for someone without forgeing skills to duplicate.thats one reason i dont give in to temptation and go with the pre made stuff . lets face it tho .. ide probably make more money that way.

[pkrankow]

Thumb position can cause nerve damage and carpel tunnel, this is a fact. We have learned this and learned how to better use our bodies to do work without injury.

File work should still be learned, but grabbing the machine and doing an hour of work in 5 minutes is a hard argument. That doesn't matter if you are in production or a hobby, but knowing how to use a file can ultimately save aggravation when the machine is too fast.

Phil

[MLMartin]

I sure hope so, because I am using Kayne and Son stuff to speed up production. I make a LOT of candle holders in the Pennsylvania/Dutch tradition. But I am glad I learned the way I did even though it took a bit longer than in the old days. As far as I know, I am the youngest one trained in the traditional way; I am almost 44.

What do you mean by your the youngest trained in the traditional way? trained in what style, to what time period?

[thecelticforge]

What do you mean by your the youngest trained in the traditional way? trained in what style, to what time period?

Apprenticeship to Journeyman, to my own shop.

[Glenn]

In today's world of instant gratification, they want to use the "extra life" button when they get burned on hot iron. And labor is a buzzword from the past, not something that actually happened.

Craftsmanship is not something you get at the drive through window, you have to work for it.
But in today's world, out the door pays the bills.

[Purgatory]

Apprenticeship to Journeyman, to my own shop.

The answer to your question sir, is simply.....yes. As one who took his training from a master, it should be horrifically apparent how fast we are losing our elders. What was began in the 1970's with the Foxfire series has tragically stalled. Our preservation efforts must evolve as -we- evolve in the craft. This craft has never been static, it has never been "traditional". It has been in a constant state of flux and progression since its inception some 2000 years ago. If there is anything to be said for loss, it comes not from the attrition of age and passing but rather from our failure to utilize the new tools of our time and to continue to evolve the craft. Now this is where Im going to divert from fact into opinion.
There's hope.
iForgeIron along with anvilfire and others were developed to bridge our technology into a new world. They have built strong communities drawing not only on the wisdom of our elders but the youth and vigor (and sometimes annoyances) of those who are new to the craft. However, there is only so much that the written word or a picture can relay. All of us who are a little older and remember trying to find information on the craft prior to Mr. Bealer can attest to the difficulty of learning without instruction. We were indeed blindly groping, pushing forward into territory that should have already been mapped. So here we are. ABANA has a huge budget, we have organizations galore, and what..... How much closer are we to making a lasting impact on our craft than we did in the 1970's? The upcoming ABANA conference tips in at 250.00. Is this withing the range of the newcomer? Have we made the education of the craft accessible? Affordable? The craft will only survive if we put it in the hands and minds of all who want it. The tool we need requires a vast network of hundreds of thousands of people. It must be permanent and unable to be eradicated. Anyone must be able to get it to in the blink of an eye. How will we ever get this kind of tool. Obviously its already here. If your in Europe or anywhere in America, or anywhere in the world, take a moment to look at this link.
http://video.google....49132039979958#
I could sit here and tell you about Jay Reakirt all day and you still wouldn't have a feel for the man, how he was, his mannerisms, his quirks, the things that made him human and a master craftsman. Yet, in 21 minutes, you will know for yourself. And in 400 years, somebody else will pull this same link and see for themselves, though all of us are gone. We have the tool that can make our craft and our teachers immortal. Kids walk around with HD movie camera in their phones for God's sake!
So what is the issue? Why have we not charged forth into this brave new world? Its a good question. Many of our elders have the traits of traditionalism, which have enabled them to carry forth our craft and bring it to the younger generation. However this trait does seem to keep them.... "traditional". Recently at a demonstration, I had the chance to speak with Mr. Clyde Payton, a legend in the Southern Blacksmith circles. I had a discussion about this very thing with him. Although he seemed to agree with my position, Mr. Clyde's opinion of a computer didn't change. They were still about as useful to him as broken boat anchors. Perhaps it is time for the current torch bearers to light the way in a new direction, one that perhaps we were raised and built for? Break out the cameras, boys, its time to film some history.

[rokshasa]

i spoke with a fellow smith a few hundred miles away, he was asking me what type of work i was doing, i told him i was studying traditional smithing seeing as i dont own a welder and have only 2 power tools (blower and sander)so i do it all the old way, by hand . he promted to tell me that ppl dont care how you make it as long as its made and i think that is one of the main problems.i see his logic but i just cant bring myself to go in that direction , besides its more fun working hard and comming up with something unique thats worth the time and effort you put in it, rather than getting something that you can go buy at wallmart or whatever get less of a return and for me at least not be as "happy" that i would have taken short cuts (just my opinion, nothing agains fab workers)i guess what im saying is that something is lost in the work when its not done the way it was meant to be done. there are no "schools" that teach smithing(in can) persay and noone to train us anymore, all we can do is read books and check out iforge or some other sites but it doesn't even come close to what it should be(although this is a great site for info).lol donno if i lost perspectives here but thats what i think.

[thecelticforge]

Excellent responses, especially from Purgatory. The part about there truly not have been a traditional time is true for all cultures, our culture included. The "guild system" was set up to protect local interest and often times retarded the growth of individual craftsmen.

My biggest concern I think is the lack of basic skills, the skills I think we all need before we even produce an item for sale.

Glen, we don't get extra lives burned? I go years between burns, and last week, I three pretty bad ones.

[Dillon Sculpture]

I have made a commitment to my craft as a blacksmith to insure my vision as an artist, learning all aspect of historical and modern techniques that I can expose myself too via conference, internet, books or backyards. I hope to also pass on what I can to others in my field, through my work and aspirations. I too feel as we are losing what needs to be preserved but I also feel that you can capture the fundamentals on camera, the expertise of our craft can should be forwarded by producing the finest works possible by your own two hands.

Purgatory, I enjoyed the video but seem to enjoy the Zombi vid more, does that say something about a new generation of smiths? :lol:

[Iron Clad]

Well, it seems that profit being a prime motivator, quick production necessitates straying from tradition. It would be nice if the public would pay for traditionally made work. This has always been my problem. I don't own a powerhammer, yet! I like to rivet and collar my work, so my welder sits unused. I use both a gas forge and a coal forge though. So, for the most part I produce in mostly a traditional way, and learned that way. Not good for the pocket book. :(

[Glenn]

we don't get extra lives burned? I go years between burns, and last week, I three pretty bad ones.

The reference was to today's computer games that when you do something to get injured or killed, you just click on the *do over* or *extra life* button and your 100% again. In real life each injury has real life pain and damage points associated with that injury. And no one tells you the injuries heal but the damage points are accumulative. Get enough damage points and it slows you down or can takes you out of the game. Technique is doing things the right way so you do not become injured.

[Glenn]

Well, it seems that profit being a prime motivator, quick production necessitates straying from tradition.

The customer can only purchase what is offered. So, why not put two similar products on the sales table, one done traditionally (with the appropriate price) and one done by today's most modern methods (with the appropriate price).


Tradition is cutting edge technology as related to that time period.

[arftist]

Hey Trenton, good to see you up and about. Hows the video thing working out?
I kind of have to disagree with you a little bit. The video idea is great, but this forum, along with Anvilfire and Artmetal and ForgeMagic and several others ARE preserving the traditions. Of course what is traditional is different for all of us. There is a heck of a lot more blacksmith related media available now than ever before.

[thecelticforge]

This is an excellent discussion on traditions. Glen has summed things up the best I think. However, I think I am bemoaning the loss of the basic skills we all should have before we hang out an open for business sign.

[Mainely,Bob]

On one hand you have the fact that we are all working with materials that weren`t even thought of back during the time most would consider the times of "traditional skills".These newer materials brought new tools and processes along with them.I think if you could travel back in time with things like welding machines and plasma cutters and a cheap way to power them then you`d be hard pressed to find folks who wouldn`t want them in their shops as they greatly simplified things and unquestionably boost production.
On the other hand,there used to be people who could shape metal into compound curves or straighten a large diameter bent shaft using nothing more than heat and water.They didn`t need huge machines costing sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars. One of the last ones up here recently retired and is constantly being asked to teach.
IMO what we are losing is not the skills so much as the deep commitment to the craft.The commitment that comes from a true understanding of what happens when a certain technique is applied and why things happen or why the material reacts as it does.That understanding is critical in obtaining repeatable and consistent results.Many of us today are happy to take a class or watch a demo and then go home and try to replicate the results.We may think we know how because we watched it done.What we don`t understand is why it works as it does and that is what keeps us from getting the results we want consistently.
The bottom line really is that forge welding WI is easier than arc welding it,but you get better and more consistent results arc welding steel that forge welding it.The change in material brought the change in process.When you think about it,using the old processes of riveting or collaring with steel,which doesn`t have the corrosion resistance of WI,only sets the project up for failure thru corrosion in those type of joins.The more realistic approach would be a full and solid weld at that join which was finished to a radius that would accept one of the new coatings that will completely seal the surface and have replaced the old oil based paints with the lead pigments.
Time moves on and so must we.That doesn`t mean we should forget all that came before.It only means we need to be selective about what we personally need to know and retain if we are to make a living doing what we like,how we like to do it.
Most consumers today are only concerned about the end product and can`t tell the difference between a "traditional" piece and one from a job shop or even a 3rd world country.When the job shop owner starts pointing to the fact that his product entails a lot less maintenance what do you tell the prospective customer about your "traditional" piece then to justify the added expense and extra maintenance?

[Francis Trez Cole]

I watched the video and one of the things I noticed was Mr. Reakin placed his thumb on the top of the handle for light blows good hammer skills come with practice ,practice, practice.

We are stewarts of the future of blacksmithing, Philip Simmons said it best he had to adapt and adjust to the times or he would have fallen by the way side. Carbon arc welding was invented in the 1800 by Sir Humphery Davy his dream was not reconized until 1860 by Wilde who combined Volta and Davy's theroies together, in 1803 was the begining of the lewis and clark expodition. When I first started blacksmithing (1987) I did not know how to weld so I learned how to forge weld out of nesessity. Later in life I learned how to stick weld. But what I knew about forge welding put me a head of my classmates.

When it comes down to it money is the driving factor what is your client willing to pay for and how well have you as a craftsman educated them. This weekend I showed our Faba group how to make chisels for repousse while the chiesels were cooling I demoed how to make a vine making jump welds. Those who want to learn will, those who are willing to share will the future depends on it.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

"Traditional" methods are just another tool in our mental tool chest. I believe that if the smiths of old had access to modern equipment like welders, plasma cutters, etc that they would have used them. They were businessmen, and as always time=$. They did things the way that they did, because those were the methods that were available to them. The venue I see "traditional" methods being used are in museum quality restorations, or recreations.

I don't see a problem with forging some elements,non-forge welding them up, and forging the welded areas to shape. In my opinion the welds can detract from the piece, if left as welded. In the end, does it really matter how they were attached, as long as the part functions as it should, and is also pleasing to the eye?

Say I need to get a folding knife blank flat after forging.I can file it, or toss it on my surface grinder. Both methods will accomplish the task, but is one better than the other? If I am in the business of selling knives, and the surface grinder saves me time, it is the better method to make money. If the knife is for my own use, and I have abundant time, I can file it, which can also be a stress reliever.

I ran into a guy about my age at a garage sale, and asked if he had any smithing tools after seeing the old tool yard art. "Nope, I keep all of that stuff." "I'm a smith. It's a dying art." What I got from talking to him was that he bends, and welds his projects. I explained to him that smithing is not a dying art, and that is was a growing field. Told him about IFI having 10,000+ members all over the world. "10,000 people worldwide isn't that many. It's still a dying art." Then he bemoaned how people don't want to pay for handcrafted items. Could be he needs to upgrade his business skills. There will always be people that are willing to pay extra for handcrafted items, because they either have the financial means to do so, or they have a deep appreciation for craftsmanship. Can any smith make a living smithing? No, the ones that are good business men can, even if their talent is not that good. I am sure you have seen examples of this yourself. Sometimes it is just being in the right place at the right time.

There is some romance in doing things the "old way". It can also be a connection for us with our past. It is something that only craftsmen can grasp. My friend( a former mold maker turned cop) commented while shooting my Trapdoor Springfield, "The guys I work with would have no appreciation for this since it isn't an AR, or a Glock. But a craftsman made this." (in reference to how modern day firearms are assembled). Who knows, in the future laser cutters,induction furnaces,CNC's, etc may be considered "traditional", or "old school".

[Bentiron1946]

Good discussion! I get or should say got very frustrated with trying to teach people how to use a tool of any kind. It doesn't matter if it is a file, hammer or a shovel, it seems if it involves effort it is not something that they want to learn. Like Glenn said it's the "age of instant gratification". One of my youngest son's friends wanted to make a spear head. Things were going OK until he had to take hammer to metal, then he wanted me to fire up my old 25#LG because hammering was harder than it looked. After that got settled he didn't want to do any filing because that was too hard, 4" disk grinder would be faster, we used the file. Now came the shaft, belt sander, no, spoke shave. He, like my son, play fantasy games sixteen hours out of twenty-four or more. After it was all over and he had his spear he knew that we could have made it much quicker with power tools. You have to want to do it the "traditional" way, it's not a given that you will. We all made fun of the next to the last blacksmith in AU but for the most part his work didn't look all that different from what is sold day in and day out here in the USA as handcrafted work and people eat it up. We have to do what needs to be done to teach those under our tutelage how it is done just like I forced the young man to make the spear. He didn't like it much but if was going to work in my forge he was going to do it the right way, hold the hammer the right way, hold the file the right way, hold the spoke shave the right way. It is incumbent on us when we have someone in our forge to have them do it correctly, just once in awhile someone may get it and that my friends is what it is all about, that one person that gets it. :blink:

[Mainely,Bob]

The frustration quotient does kick in about the third time you have to remind someone that the file really DOES need to be lifted on the return stroke and doesn`t cut in both directions though doesn`t it?
For me the hardest thing is to get people to let go of bad habits and keep their minds open to other ways(meaning the correct way) of doing things.
When you come to my shop and use my tools it is not a democracy,it is what I term a "benevolent dictatorship".As long as you do things my way it will continue to be benevolent,play it fast and loose with my gear and things will get ugly with the quickness.
In order for me to turn you loose on the high dollar(and flesh eating) machinery you have to prove competence with hand tools first.

[Iron Clad]

After two reply's myself and after reading all of the other reply's I just have to say one more thing.... Recently I forged 40' of interior railing for a customer, and of course he wanted it on the cheap with all of the pickets welded in. For the first time I agreed to do a large project with welds. I have to tell you that I will never do it again. I hated every moment of that project, with all of the welding and grinding. For me, part of the fun and enjoyment of this craft is sticking to traditional methods as close as I can. HOWEVER, I'm not a full time blacksmith and I fully understand why modern methods must be employed. I don't know how a full time shop could survive without modern methods. I participate in this craft for many reasons. First is the fact that I enjoy studying history, so traditional methods most appeal to me. Many times when trying to reproduce a complicated piece from say like the 1700's, I end up saying to myself "How in the heck did they do that?". So goes the reasearch along with trial and error. Now I don't always try to reproduce old stuff, I like trying to come up with my own designs as well.

When it comes right down to it, everyone must do what's best for themselves. The great thing is that we all like to work with metal in one form or another.

I just bought a treadle hammer from a friend, and I'm thinking of buying a power hammer. Did I just contradict everything I just said? :o

[mike-hr]

I'm proud to admit i consider Mark Aspery's system of education one of my lifes high points. I have the tools and technology to to mig weld and blend in leaf and vine work, and i admit, it happens, depending on the budget for the job. The wierd thing is, I always hear this Welsh accented voice in the back of my head telling me to jamb it in the fire and do it right. As I progress in this trade, I find i can do the same work with increasingly less power tools. You're correct, very few folks can discern the difference, but the whole piece has a very different flavour when done in the fire than on the fab table. most of my new client sales pitch is slanted to educating folks on the differences. We're not losing the old ways at all, it's just a mental (and economic) struggle to incorperate them, and still get paid.