70-90 lb anvils: advisable?

[kerisman]

From what I can find on this forum (and elsewhere), few blacksmiths have anvils in the (roughly) 70-90 lb range... or at least they don't talk about them much.

I'm getting into the craft as a hobby. I'm not planning on forging anything huge in the near future -- I want to work on smaller projects (hooks and brackets, handles, small sculpture, etc.). I'm also attracted to the idea of a workable-but-still-portable anvil (that almost sounds like an oxymoron -- something like the NC Tool Short Sugar.

So, what are the LIMITS of a 70 lb. anvil? At what point does it become unreasonably light?

Finally, as far as the physics are concerned, is it correct to say that the decreased mass of small anvils results in a less elastic collision, meaning more effort on the part of the blacksmith (since the anvil doesn't "hit back" as hard) and more shock being transferred to the anvil stand?

Thanks!
Karl

[Rob Browne]

You are right in that most use heavier anvils but they are not always necessary. If you are into BIG forging then a heavy anvil is a necessity but for hooks, etc a lighter one is more than enough. I forge on a 26kg anvil quite successfully but it has to be used within its limits. I don't get real strikers to work with me, but don't tell my boys that. The heaviest hammer I work with is about 4kg and that's not too often and is always in the middle of the anvil not on the bick or tail. The anvil is virtually locked down to a tree stump set in the ground so I am using the mass of the tree stump to increase the mass of the anvil so its basically the hard top to the stump.

One day I would like to get a heavy anvil but considering what I work on the little one works really well and I simply can't afford a heavier one at present.

[Bentiron1946]

Is this what you're talking about? http://www.centaurforge.com/NC-70-lb-Short-Sugar-Anvil/productinfo/18SUGAR/ It's a fine anvil for someone making horse shoes but maybe you should be looking at one that does not have all of the stuff on it for a farrier. I'm sure that there is one out there that is better suited to general smithing than the Short Sugar.
I think I'll take a look see and find out what's being made these days. B)

[MLMartin]

Well the weight is certainly not the total say on anvils. what matters much more is how much mass is under the main working face, if you use a typical London pattern anvil much of the mass is strung out over a long horn and heel. having most of the mass of an anvil under the face will help in the force of your blows. so by using a colonial anvil like the ones Jymm Hoffman makes every hammer blow will produce much more work than a anvil thats all strung out.

soooooo it all comes down to mass under your hammer. think of it this way, you have a block of steel that's 2 inch thick by 1 foot square. you could lay it flat and have a anvil face that was 1 foot square but only 2 inch of mass thick. this would not work well, being so thin would cause your hammers force to pass though and into the stump vary fast. now if you took the same block and stood it on end you would only have a anvil face that was 2 inch by 1 foot, but you would have a foot of mass under the face, this would provide a great amount of mass and work well.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

I have been using a 125# JHM Journeyman anvil that I got last summer from a farrier who got out of the biz. For smaller stuff it works fine, although I need to get it off of the folding stand, and onto a stump I have here. I don't mind the turning cams on the heel, and actually see them as a plus for some jobs. The price was right, so I picked it up. I got the anvil, stand, a single burner gas forge, tool box of shoe blanks, a tool box of hoof repair items, and a tool box with flux, tongs, hardies, rasp, etc. for $250. I have other blacksmith anvils up to 306#, but couldn't pass this one up. I like the 260# Fisher because it is quieter then the rest.

I would agree though that from a cost point you should make a trip to a scrap yard to pick up some various shaped anvils for way less.

[Jymm Hoffman]

While this is a little bigger at 110 pounds, it is very versatile. I used one similar to this full time for almost a year prior to getting a larger anvil. I still use one of these a lot.

http://www.iforgeiron.com/index.php?app=gallery&module=images&section=viewimage&img=23685

[kerisman]

Bentiron1946: That's the anvil I was referring to as an example (also at http://www.nctoolco.com/pages/anvils3.htm). You make a good point -- it's too specifically designed for farrier work. In fact, that anvil is a case in point for what Mlmartin15 points out regarding anvil *shape* -- the mass it does have is not where it should be (for general blacksmithing, anyway). From the looks of it, the horn has as much mass as the base!

I think I'll keep looking for an anvil of this size that has its mass where it counts. I talked to someone in a local machine shop who's got a Peddinghaus for sale, but I'm not sure I need anything of that quality/expense just yet.

[brianbrazealblacksmith]

What you mount your anvil on can make more of a difference than the weight of your anvil. I've worked on alot of 500# and over anvils that were just sitting on a stand, and I prefer my little 88# Henry Wright mounted to my stand that is mounted to whatever surface I'm on.

[HWooldridge]

For a hobbyist, a good anvil in the 70-90 lb range is fine - you can always trade up in the future if you find something bigger. Francis Whitaker made an interesting comment in his "Blacksmith's Cookbook" about anvil size (he basically said, "It's not the gun...it's the gunner") - he had a 150 lb one over much of his entire career.

I used a 100 lb Hay Budden for about 20 years as my demo rig at craft fairs and had no trouble working on it all day long with a 2-1/2 to 3 lb hand hammer - plenty of rebound and no damage was ever inflicted on it.

As Brian stated, a great deal can be gained from the correct base and a good foundation makes all the difference.

[eric sprado]

I was a farrier for 25 years. During that time I saw all these "re-invention" of the anvil" for shoers that were TOTALLY useless,like the Short Sugar.Don't think I EVER saw a real shoer use one of those 70# anvil shaped objects. I served my apprenticeship on a US Cavalary 125 anvil which was a basic blacksmith anvil.I do have a nice Mousehole type anvil which weighs about 95# that is fun to bring to hammer-ins and works for hooks etc. because of its narrow face.
My favorite is my 165 pounder. Just adding my one and a half cents.... Eric Sprado, Deadwood Oregon.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

For a starter anvil I would hit a scrap yard, or other place that may sell/give away urban ore. You may be surprised what is thrown away that will make a good anvil. 1" Steel plate is 40.8# per square foot, so a piece 2x12x12 would be 80+ #.

[rlarkin]

I have a 87 lb Peter Wright.
Do I wish it was bigger? Yes.
Does it do everything I need? Yes.

[ThomasPowers]

My main shop anvil is a 515# Fisher and I love the mass and the quiet. However until very recently I had a lot more hours forging on a 93# Arm and Hammer (*not* Vulcan!) as it was my travel anvil and as a hobbyist I got to spend all day hammering on it at demo's where at home I was lucky to get a couple of hours a week on the bigger anvil.

I have been using a very much smaller anvil lately for some demos, it's about 25 pounds and was forged by Steve Parker to be a close replica of historical anvils used from Roman times through the French and Indian War! (cites: Roman Museum in Bath, various viking era examples, the Camino Real Museum in NM and Jymm H). I miss the larger ones; but it sure teaches me to keep the work *hot* as the wrought iron would have been worked at near to welding temps.

I would look for a large lump of steel as a "starter" anvil and remember that anvils attract anvils so be ready to upgrade when the chance occurs!

[Bentiron1946]

Take a look a Brian Brazeal's anvil that he makes his hammer heads on, it is not an excessively large looking hunk of steel and not even shaped like what most think of when we hear the word anvil. An anvil by definition is a heavy block on which metal is shaped. It does not define that shape except by two words, heavy & block, so you can have a 4" square block, 6" round block, but they all need a to be heavy. I once had an eighty-four pound stump anvil, it didn't look all that big, it had no horn but was a delight to do small work on. Like others have said look around and see the possibilities out there for an "anvil", they all don't need to look like a London pattern anvil. :P

[Sam Falzone]

Everyone has pretty much come up with the same answer - for a starting smith who is also looking for a transportable anvil, 70-90 lbs is (IMO) ideal, especially if like you said you just want to focus on smaller scale projects. But I'll wager you would find that you can do a lot more with that size anvil than you think you can. If you happen to stumble upon an affordable anvil - you jump on it - that's a lesson you learn quick when you catch the smithing bug .

Good luck with your search - just beware of "anvil-shaped-objects (ASO)". These things may have an anvil shape and may be selling for an incredibly low price - but usually it's because they aren't worth spit as an anvil (example, you will often hear smiths in this forum talk about cheap anvils from Harbour Freight - these are often refered to as ASO's).

Cheers.
Sam

[FieryFurnace]

Hi there I use an 85 lb anvil and have done so for four years now. I would like something larger but that is because I have been doing larger items. The last four years I have been traveling everywhere doing demos and making hooks, hat racks, small tools, small knives, fire pokers, toilet paper & towel holders, etc. The 85 lb anvil is perfect for this. Anything heavier would be a killer to transport. Anything smaller bounces. I have a 50 lb. anvil that was given to me, and I use it only for straightening and cutting sharp corners, because it is too light for general forge work. It bounces some with a 4 lb. sledge. I would advise 80+ lbs. for general work.

Good luck!

Dave

[kerisman]

Thanks, all. Your input has been helpful. I'm still looking for something affordable that is solid steel and in decent shape, but I won't pass up a deal on a 70 pounder.

[pkrankow]

If your anvil is very securely mounted it will improve the performance significantly, even if it is a lighter anvil.

Theoretically if your mounting is secure enough your anvil is the Earth itself.

On the other hand, my new anvil is a 168# Trenton and I have to move it in and out of the garage. It is easier to move affixed to its stump with a dolly, but it is a whole lot more difficult to move than the 69# CI anvil it replaces. If you have to move your anvil about frequently, lighter becomes better.

Phil

[Dragons lair]

Hi there I use an 85 lb anvil and have done so for four years now. I would like something larger but that is because I have been doing larger items. The last four years I have been traveling everywhere doing demos and making hooks, hat racks, small tools, small knives, fire pokers, toilet paper & towel holders, etc. The 85 lb anvil is perfect for this. Anything heavier would be a killer to transport. Anything smaller bounces. I have a 50 lb. anvil that was given to me, and I use it only for straightening and cutting sharp corners, because it is too light for general forge work. It bounces some with a 4 lb. sledge. I would advise 80+ lbs. for general work.

Good luck!

Dave

Dave, Why would ya hit a 50 lb anvil with a 4 lb sledge? I don't use over a 2.5 lb on a 194 lb Trenton.
Ken

[Sam Falzone]

Thanks, all. Your input has been helpful. I'm still looking for something affordable that is solid steel and in decent shape, but I won't pass up a deal on a 70 pounder.

Kerisman,
Where are you from?
Go to the members profile section and fill in your location information, that way if anyone comes across information that might help you that's nearby, they can let you know.
Cheers.
Sam

[kerisman]

@Sam: Done. Now accepting deal proposals from forum members Interested in anvils in central TN and also western KY.

[Sam Falzone]

@Sam: Done. Now accepting deal proposals from forum members Interested in anvils in central TN and also western KY.

Okay, while I don't live in Tennessee (or the US for that matter), I'm always willing to help out a fellow smith if I can.

137 lb Peter Wright anvil for sale in Nashville on craigslist for $300.00
http://nashville.craigslist.org/grd/1663673095.html

Now that's a little more than $2.00 per pound ($2.19 to be exact) - decent price (not stellar but decent).

The kicker is that this seller has gone down in price from $500.00 just 12 days ago - so keep watching it to see if the price drops anymore, or, even better arrange to visit with the seller to inspect the anvil (try to never buy an anvil just based on a picture or a promise) and make him a decent offer if $300.00 is too steep for you right now and if the anvil is in good shape.

137 lbs is on the heavy end of still being transportable but is a very versatile weight - it could be the last anvil you will ever need, depending on what you want to do.

Think about it - I'll keep snooping around.

Sam
(Hamilton, Ontario. Canada)

[Sam Falzone]

90 lb Trenton anvil for sale in Chattanooga on craigslist for $225.00
http://chattanooga.craigslist.org/atq/1650285654.html

asking $2.50 per lb

[Sam Falzone]

ALL KINDS of blacksmith tools for sale in Asheville on craiglist
http://asheville.craigslist.org/tls/1667047727.html

-- too many to list check it out for yourself.

[Sam Falzone]

85 lb anvil for sale in Huntsville on craigslist
http://gadsden.craigslist.org/tls/1638225131.html

-didn't list a price but posted 3 pictures.