Gayle Brooks Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 In Pine, Colorado our elevation is around 8600 ft. Quite high! I have a friend who lives at a similar elevation recently bought a Nazel from Mr. Bob Bergman. He recieved it, hooked it up and turned it on he found out that at our elevation these types of hammers have a hard time performing. There just is not enough air. I personally might get a sahinler soon and am concerned about the elevation issue as well. Has anyone else dealt, heard or resolved this issue of high elevations and self contained air hammers. Last I spoke with him, he was talking to Bob and is going to bore it out to allow more air in at once. I personally have little experience with these hammers. Is there an adjustment that can be made to assist this before actually modifying the hammer?? Thank you so much for your time! -Rory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironstein Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 In Pine, Colorado our elevation is around 8600 ft. Quite high! I have a friend who lives at a similar elevation recently bought a Nazel from Mr. Bob Bergman. He recieved it, hooked it up and turned it on he found out that at our elevation these types of hammers have a hard time performing. There just is not enough air. I personally might get a sahinler soon and am concerned about the elevation issue as well. Has anyone else dealt, heard or resolved this issue of high elevations and self contained air hammers. Last I spoke with him, he was talking to Bob and is going to bore it out to allow more air in at once. I personally have little experience with these hammers. Is there an adjustment that can be made to assist this before actually modifying the hammer?? Thank you so much for your time! -Rory I think it is an air flow issue. At higher altitudes there is less oxygen, and the air is thinner, but a compressor would still pressurize the air going into the hammer. I may be wrong, but forcing higher cfm into the hammer should work. Just an opinion. Grant will have the answer, he always has the answer! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Hammer Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 It was mentioned that those kinds of hammers have trouble performing. Does that mean it didn't perform at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Sculpture Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 Oh Grant..... Now where did he go.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 Sorry, all my experience is at sea level. Scratching my head on this one. Could be a serious issue. Is he really going to bore out the compressor cylinder and make a new piston and rings and all, just on the speculation that it might work? Is the ram not raising? Let's hear the symptoms before we start looking for solutions. Then we'll first try the normal sea level fixes. Might just be jumping to conclusions without enough facts. You may have reached a conclusion too soon and you'll end up chasing your tail based on what could be a false premise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gayle Brooks Posted January 13, 2010 Author Share Posted January 13, 2010 Sorry, all my experience is at sea level. Scratching my head on this one. Could be a serious issue. Is he really going to bore out the compressor cylinder and make a new piston and rings and all, just on the speculation that it might work? Is the ram not raising? Let's hear the symptoms before we start looking for solutions. Then we'll first try the normal sea level fixes. Might just be jumping to conclusions without enough facts. You may have reached a conclusion too soon and you'll end up chasing your tail based on what could be a false premise. From what I have heard that there is not enough air on the back stroke to return the die to its idle place. A plate has been placed on the exhaust to help give some more back pressure. I am told that it has helped a little. And that's the theory, larger hole for the air, more air can come in.I think it is an air flow issue. At higher altitudes there is less oxygen, and the air is thinner, but a compressor would still pressurize the air going into the hammer. I may be wrong, but forcing higher cfm into the hammer should work. Just an opinion. Grant will have the answer, he always has the answer! I agree I thought there would be a easily adjustment to compensate as our shop has adjusted with our Bull hammers that have dedicated air compressors with gauges. I am guessing this isnt a common issue with higher altitudes being that there is no such literature online that I can find. I dont currently happen to have a manual of either the nazel or sahinler on me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gpworks Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 i would lean to a displacement problem.if you were boiling water or trying to tune a carburator altitude would have an effect.a turbine on a jet works at 30k feet in the air plus displacing air. i can't see why a compressor could not do it if all supply factors are what they should be. not sure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragons lair Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 Intake restriction? I would think if the compressor is working properly it would compress the thin air. Might take a little longer. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 "From what I have heard that there is not enough air on the back stroke to return the die to its idle place." Rory, this statement is a conclusion followed by a symptom. The only thing we know for sure is that the ram is not raising back up as it should. The cause might be "not enough air on the back stroke to return" or it might be any of a number of things. I had a Nazel that would not raise back up and it was at sea level. The altitude might be exacerbating the problem, but I think there must be other problems. The stack on the top is often called the “exhaust” but it is actually just where the air cushion that prevents the ram from striking the head breathes in and out. Sometime a “flapper” valve can be placed over it to help raise the ram, but this is just a “kludge” to mask the real problem. What is he planning to bore out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe-Wood Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 What about rings and seals? Has he pulled it apart to see that everything is working as it should be? Visions of a ram air power hammer...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonjic Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 What about rings and seals? Has he pulled it apart to see that everything is working as it should be? Visions of a ram air power hammer...... As mentioned I would check rings, seals & valve clearances, then valve settings, then top tool weight (sometimes on a low pressure 'hold up' (the return after the forging blow when it pumps back up to the top a bit of extra weight can be the 'straw that breaks the camels back) I would then look closely at the valves and see if there is any 'tuning' holes that could be plugged, or drilled out. There may be a compensating plug / hole on the compressor piston that can be plugged up (self containds always make more air than they need when new, and some of it is bled off to atmosphere) If the hammer is pretty worn all over I would consider drilling a hole in the ram cylinder near the ram guide and piping a couple of PSI in there from an extrenal compressor to aid the lift, or a direct air feed from the compressor piston. Im not familiar with the hammer design so cant comment on specifics, hope the ideas above are a starting point. I would have a guess that some new piston rings, and repacking the ram gland will be enough........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 1: Folks it's a self contained hammer there is not a separate compressor that could be "run longer". Take a look at how these work! Elegant simplicity in a way but hard to make changes to the basic way it works! Putting a supercharger on the air inlet is probably not a good idea! 2: I know a smith at 7000' that uses a 500# self contained hammer with no issues I know of. I can give you his contact info if you send me a pm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 I suspect it is a pressure regulator problem. At sea level atmospheric pressure is 15psi (approx) and atmospheric pressure at 8600ft is 10psi (approx) some pressure regulators may give 1/3 less pressure meaning if your system runs of 90psi, you may actually be getting 60psi. I could also be confused on how pressure regulators work too. Phil ref for psi at altitude. http://www.sensorsone.co.uk/altitude-pressure-units-conversion.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe-Wood Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 Putting a supercharger on the air inlet is probably not a good idea! Aw Come On Thomas... Where's you sence of humor? :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Larson Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 If the machine was delivered with a plate restrictor then it has an issue not related to altitude. Grant is right that it is a kludge. The machine rebuilt in Bob Bergman's video had this kludge and Bob said so. Very high probability of leaking rings and seals on the ram, whereas the pump could well be just fine. It is a very low air pressure/very high volume system. How an old Nazel performs has little bearing on how a new Sahinler will perform, so I'd say fear not. Does your regular air compressor work at you altitude? If it does, no problem with the Sahinler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 As often happens, I'm 100% with Larson on this. Look for the normal problems. Was the plate already on it? If so it was put there (at sea level) to mask other problems. A good machine doesn't need that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bentiron1946 Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 Just be happy it isn't steam powered and the boiler that you got with it is not putting out as much steam as at sea level. Boiler HP goes down as altitude goes up, then your attitude goes down. I can hardly wait till the solution is revealed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gayle Brooks Posted January 14, 2010 Author Share Posted January 14, 2010 wow, great replies! I have forwarded this topic to him as well. If anything I learned alot more than I expected about these hammers. Also a reminder that this is not my hammer, but a friend's at his shop. When I hear the solution he has done Ill let you know. Thank you all again for your input, replies and insight. It is greatly appreciated!! -Rory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HammerHoyl Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 Hello All, I am the smith who purchased the hammer that Rory discussed above. Primer: I recently acquired a fully rebuilt 1 piece Nazel 2b hammer from Bob Bergman at the Postville Blacksmith Shop. Having bought and run the hammer at a lower altitude I was able to establish a "standard" of various measures. These include: ram travel during operation, strength in blow, number of compressions for the ram to "park" at idle etc. After falling in love with the quality of workmanship that Bob and his boys performed on the hammer, along with its amazing performance, I brought it home to 8,500ft where the hammer has been installed. Having finished the installation and run the hammer for a prolonged period of time I have made several observations that have led me to conclude that the hammer's performance is being effected by altitude. Observations: 1) When turning the hammer on it takes approx. 30 seconds for the hammer to "park". At sea level the hammer performed this operation within less than 10 seconds or within several compressions. 2) At maximum blow the hammer does not hit as hard. 3) The travel of the ram is less than at sea level. 4) Once the hammer finishes forging and returns to the idle position, it is unable to push enough air through the lower valve to raise the ram into its park position. The result is the top die taps the bottom die lightly. This causes quite a problem as one could imagine because you have to "sneak" your workpiece in between blows. Altitude: At sea level there exists a consistent atmospheric pressure of 14.696 PSI. This unit of pressure is referred to as "standard atmosphere". With every 1,000 ft elevation gain, you loose 4% of atmospheric pressure. This is because there is less overlying atmospheric mass, so that pressure decreases with increasing elevation. I live at 8,500ft. That is a decrease of 34% of atmospheric pressure. That means I am loosing 5PSI of compression within the cylinder. A significant loss. Solutions: My main problem is the ram wont park. That causes considerable difficulties when trying to forge anything. At full blow the hammer does quite well. Well enough that I am satisfied with its performance during that phase. I am in communication with Bob Bergman the leading expert in Nazels. We have come up with several possible solutions to get the hammer to park. 1) Install a "flap" over the muffler. I have already done this and it works. Because of the way the air distribution works during the "idle" phase of the hammer, the back pressure limits the exhaust of the air and causes the ram to increase in travel. It also helps the ram come close to parking. A great temporary fix, but does cause a bit of noise and does not help the hammer during full blow. 2)Bore out the valve and corresponding sleeve where air travels during the idle phase. This would increase the quantity of air traveling below the ram and lifting it into a park position. I pulled both the valve and sleeve to make sure that maximum air was flowing through these holes. They matched perfectly and no increase in their size was possible. 3) Make a taller bottom die and smaller top die. Thereby decreasing the weight of the ram and making it easier for the limited amount of air to lift the ram. I am doing this currently, and hopefully it will work well enough that I don't need the exhaust cover. 4) Plan B... Plug the balance valves and make a supercharger that fits over the muffler. It would need to be a blower that exerts enough CFM to create an extra 5PSI. It would also need to have a 5PSI "Blow off" valve that allows the hammer to exhaust any pressure that is more than 5PSI. 5) Plan C... Get a S&*T load of duct tape and expandable foam, along with a giant blower and pressurize my entire shop.... Pipe Dreaming again. So that's the story. Rory, I think Smaller top die and larger bottom die solution may work best for you. Or, it may be that the supercharger solution could work well. I don't know much about the air distribution systems in those Turkish hammers. But it would hinge upon where the hammer intakes air, and if it has balance valves within the compression cylinder. We should talk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 Ah, nice to have all those facts. Your current plan of lightening the top die has merit from my experience. One thing I would do is run a test to check out how well EVERYTHING is sealing. Do this by filling the oiler with heavy oil, open the metering valves on the oiler and run the hammer. Either crank on the oiler by hand or chuck a drill on it and pump LOTS of oil in while it's being used. If you don't see any improvement, then all of the piston and rod and valves are probably sealing good. Plan #4, I don't understand at all. Are you talking about the exhaust stack on top? That only supplies the the internal cushion cylinder that prevents crashing. Adding pressure there would force the ram down. Atmospheric pressure is 10.75 PSIA at 8,500 feet, so it's only 27% less. Only? Still very significant. But the hammer works on positive and negative pressures (suction) We're still probably losing 20% of pressure differential (MEP). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmy seale Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 as a air driller...in a former life..we had 1000 cfm comps. at 100% efficentcy..and lost about 3% per 1000' of elevation...but the efficentcy rating was...well...you will do well using a 5% loss per 1000'hope this helps, jimmy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HammerHoyl Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 Naked anvil, Thank you for the correction in my atmosphere calculations. I was going off of Wikipidea data... To answer your question, yes, the supercharger would mount to the exhaust stack. In reference to Mark Krause's publication Nazel hammers, It clearly shows that almost all of the air compressed and exahusted in the operation of the hammer, origonates at the exhaust stack (minus the effect of the balance valve, Of which I have little understanding). Therefore not only does it cushion the ram from hitting the top of the front cylinder as you say, it also supplies air to the compression cylinder in both its upward and downward stroke. Therefore a supercharger on the exhaust stack would increase the pressure within the rear cylinder (provided the balance valves are plugged). This idea has many drawbacks and I'm sure a few that I've not even thought of. 1) Cost 2) Noise 3) What to do about the balance valves in the rear cylinder? 4)construction of an overpressure valve that would match the speed of 210 cycles pr. min. I've thought of a fairly simple design for the supercharger. Essentially you would have a horizontal T section tubing with one leg bolting onto the exhaust stack. Another leg of the T would be the air supply from some sort of blower mounted elsewhere. Preferably outside(noise). The third leg would have a steel cap weighted to resist up to 5psi before "burping" exhaust air from the hammer. Assuming you were using 1" square tubing, you would need a 5lb weight providing resistance to escaping air. Once the pressure exceeded 5psi the cap would lift and expel the air until the pressure decreased. My fear is this process of pressurized air exhausting happens so fast that my design may not keep up. Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe-Wood Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 I've thought of a fairly simple design for the supercharger. Essentially you would have a horizontal T section tubing with one leg bolting onto the exhaust stack. Another leg of the T would be the air supply from some sort of blower mounted elsewhere. Preferably outside(noise). The third leg would have a steel cap weighted to resist up to 5psi before "burping" exhaust air from the hammer. Assuming you were using 1" square tubing, you would need a 5lb weight providing resistance to escaping air. Once the pressure exceeded 5psi the cap would lift and expel the air until the pressure decreased. My fear is this process of pressurized air exhausting happens so fast that my design may not keep up. Thoughts? Passive resistance- Use a smaller section of exaust pipe with 90 degree fittings. The pipe and fittings will cause resistance for the passing air. You should be able to calculate that down to the ounce depending on the size pipe you use... I'm still betting it is something internal thats not adjusted quite right or leaking. Grants idea about flooding it with oil is a good one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HammerHoyl Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 Good idea about the tubing. I was using 1" square tubing to make an easy to understand point about the amount of weight needed for the bleed off valve. All gaskets, piston rings and bushings were replaced by Bob Bergman & Co. I have tried soaking the machine with excessive oil. I even bought a quart of Marvel's Mystery Oil and dumped it into the front piston to ensure the lower gasket was soaked and making the best seal possible. This machine is air tight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 And yet, putting a flapper valve on the stack which creates a vacuum condition helps to raise the ram! And you want to put pressure there? Don't think so. The bottom side of the compressor cylinder is where air is compressed to raise the ram. The bottom side of the compressor cylinder obtains it's air from the crank chamber. The extended portion of the compressor piston that seals it and acts as a guide has a ring of holes where it can draw in air at the top of it's stroke. Only the top end of the compressor pulls make-up air from the stack. The usual "flapper valve" is just a loose flap on the stack like a reed valve that allows air to exhaust freely and sucks down tight when air is drawn in. Is that what you have? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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