jason0012 Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 I have been forging iron since the late '80s. I ran my shop full time for most of the '90s . My business always made some money and at the very least was able to support my forging habit. In 1999 I got married and went on the road doing the journeyman thing. After a few years my wife and I returned home planning to settle down( by then kids were involved). I was unable to resume the ironworks business until 04. 2004 was my best year ever, but sadly my bills exceeded my income. I had to shut the forge down a second time and seek outside employment. For the last few years I have been millwrighting , traveling to do repair work on turbines and such. I have been laid off since June and kicking around the idea of getting the old shop up and running again. My problem is one I hadn't expected. All of the old contractors I used to work for are either out of business or near to being out. This is the first time in over 20 years I have come up completely empty! Is the economy THAT bad? I haven't even been able to pick up any tool dressing, which used to be my stand by emergency work. Zip on welding, machine work, and architechtural work is just absolutely gone. Has anybody else run into this or am I doing something wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 The answer that you get is likely to depend on the experiences of the person answering this question. On one hand you have smiths on the forum who report having yearly incomes of up to five-hundred thousand dollars, and on the other hand there are people struggling to put food on their tables. In the past couple of years a bunch of blacksmith shops in this area have gone out of business and sold all their equipment, fuel and material prices have skyrocketed, and a lot of ironwork is being purchased from south of the border or overseas for much cheaper than it can be made/purchased here. Also, whereas there were only a relative handful of blacksmiths in the 1980s there now are many thousands of smiths competing for the same market. Many of those thousands of smiths are hobbyists that don't have to depend on blacksmithing to feed their families and are willing to do the work for much less than a smith who must cover their costs and pay their bills. Now is the time for folks to chime in and inform us that: - I am an idiot. - They are making in the hundreds of thousands of dollars per year - That the price of materials is unimportant, they just pass the costs on to their customers who are happy to pay whatever they charge - You have to struggle and build your business, reinvest in expensive equipment, and make stuff as nice as they make - Anyone who fails is either a fool and/or lazy. - They don't know anyone having problems with the economy - The figures that one in five people in this economy is unemployed is pure fiction - They don't have any problems so are therefor to be admired by the rest of us. - Make stuff for the high-end market, as there is always a market for selling to rich folks. - and lastly, repeat what someone has already said on this thread because they did not read, or carefully read, the previous posts. Enjoy. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragons lair Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 Yes its in the tank for small timers. Company closed when I was 59. Out of work for year and a half. Started a small welding shop at home.Added CNC cutting and smithing. Spent more than I made. 2 yrs ago client #s dropped by 50%. Now almost 0. 1 so far this yr. Just might have to pull the plug. Good luck to ya. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petere76 Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 Dave, Most of the smiths I know, have other day jobs, myself included. The new home Iron market is deprerssed because folks are not building houses. However, the retrofit market is going strong. High end renovations on existing homes is a viable market. I operate close to a large ski area so the "fireplace" accessories and tourist knick-knacks sell well. Other smiths I know have gone with craft style cooperatives in order to display product and market smaller fair type items (bottle openers, key fobs, desk deco, coat racks, hooks etc). The income is less on the small items as opposed to the large commisions but it does keep some income flowing. There are more smiths in the mix of late. Imports from China and Mexico are prevelant in the marketplace but they do not have the look or feel of hand forged iron. Its stamped, welded and it looks that way. The foreign made products only strong suite is it's price point. Home cheapo sells 5 piece firplace tool sets for 150 USD. I can't touch that price but the quality look and feel of my Iron speaks for itself and there still is a market for quality. As a suggestion, hook up with the stone masons and the building contractors. These trades look for quality iron products to offer their customers. In our case this is a natural fit and the contractors are a great outlet for our products because they are building for the folks that have the money to spend. In the mean time we will all keep on keeping on. All the best, Peter Carrabassett Valley Forge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 Dave: - You are an idiot. - I am making in the hundreds of thousands of dollars per year - The price of materials is unimportant, I just pass the costs on to my customers who are happy to pay whatever I charge - You have to struggle and build your business, reinvest in expensive equipment, and make stuff as nice as I make - Anyone who fails is either a fool and/or lazy. - I don't know anyone having problems with the economy - The figures that one in five people in this economy is unemployed is pure fiction - I don't have any problems so are therefor to be admired by the rest of you. - I make stuff for the high-end market, as there is always a market for selling to rich folks. And furthermore: - You are an idiot. - I am making in the hundreds of thousands of dollars per year - The price of materials is unimportant, I just pass the costs on to my customers who are happy to pay whatever I charge - You have to struggle and build your business, reinvest in expensive equipment, and make stuff as nice as I makeDave: - Anyone who fails is either a fool and/or lazy. - I don't know anyone having problems with the economy - The figures that one in five people in this economy is unemployed is pure fiction - I don't have any problems so are therefor to be admired by the rest of you. - I make stuff for the high-end market, as there is always a market for selling to rich folks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 was going to make a comment about agreeing with somebody above about historic work but mr naked put me off my stride!! all i was going to say was that as far as i can see in this country (uk) its the same as what youre all saying regarding recession etc but i know that if i was more skilled and had more knowledge i could get historical / restoration work on churches and historic buildings along with the stone masons and historic wood and glass specialists here that my husband works with. maybe its the same in other countries- there are thousands of these places here and they still seem to have money to spend even in this climate (whatever that is..) Luckily i dont have to support my family with the work i do yet.. having said that maybe i should get my act together.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 Don't ask us what you should be doing. You have to find out where there IS a demand. I could setup to do all kinds of things, but that doesn't mean I'd have the work to support it. Strong companies love a recession one in awhile. Weeds out the weak, undercutters. Finding business is a big part of the job. I've known successful businessmen that didn't know squat about how to do the work, but they knew how to get work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mainely,Bob Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 My friends in the guilds and local artist co-ops are reporting the same thing as my contractor friends.Things are down all over. That doesn`t stop me from asking them if they need anything on a regular basis though. There`s always the dreaded online auctions.Some folks seem to be doing good offering welded trinkets and poorly made or thought out tools so the real thing made by a real smith may go over surprisingly well(nod,nod,wink wink,say no more). Surprisingly,repairs on bronze deck hardware has gone up in demand after minimal activity for years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 Look up "oxymoron" in the dictionary. There's a picture of a blacksmith businessman. Wish it were different, but it's darn hard to be a businessman too. We all want to be blacksmiths, but if you're going to make a living at it you gotta learn to be a businessman too. And a book-keeper and a janitor and a.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bentiron1946 Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 Here in the Phoenix Metro area things are bad. Our economy is based on tourism and home building. In my little corner of the this vast metro area custom home building has tanked. My neighbor was a custom home builder and on a regular basis used a blacksmith to do all the interior iron but he hasn't built a house in two years, down from four a year. Now if that trend is extended to the other builders then most of the smiths are hurting just as bad. That's one of the reason my friend is trying to sell some of his equipment, got mortgages to pay, household expenses, not getting much work. He has no helpers anymore, does some small welding jobs but there isn't enough to pay expenses. Cheap ironwork is right across the boarder. This current economy here is bad! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan W Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 What about teaching? I know there are a lot of BS schools scattered throughout the country, and darn good ones at that. So maybe put in a call for some side work as a part time instructor? Personaly not my cup of tea as I no longer have the patience to deal with classroom sized groups. Just a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonjic Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 I speak to lots of blacksmiths in the UK on a daily basis, and most working in the 'mid range' have said their forward order books arent so healthy, but there is work there. The 'big' shops doing the very high end work have still got 6 - 12 months work on the books. I spoke to a few people in '09 who were looking at making their sole income from smithing (well smithing and fabricating ironwork, you know what I mean....) as 'card in' employment is sketchy at best at the moment. I saw a very slow few months with power hammer sales last year, but I think many people (and the media) were talking the recession 'up', sales are right back up again now, the same rules apply with smithing as all businesses, make yourself more efficent! Ive also notice general levels of activity (enquiries, and orders) are on the up on the industrial forging side of my business. Hopefully we have seen the worst of it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted January 9, 2010 Share Posted January 9, 2010 Jason, I am sorry to hear that you are going through a tough time. You are not alone as a lot of smiths and folks in general are struggling. My sincere hope is that you can find a market for your work and efforts, and that you and your family does well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dablacksmith Posted January 9, 2010 Share Posted January 9, 2010 i know the economy is down but my buisness is up ... mostly because people are finding my shop finally . I make small items mostly and have a shop in a museum setting in the phoenix valley .. ive never made big money but ime keeping alive . i sell a lot of 20$ range items (hooks, dinner bells , bottle openers ect) if you have a place with good traffic people can usually afford 20 bucks.i also keep a tips jar it ant much but it pays for the gas for my motorcycle to get to work.some people are better at sales and selling than others.its something you can learn tho the hard part is the cheapos who demean your work with words like " o my (father son brother) is a welder and he can make that or " you want 20$ for that i can get one at home despot for 5 bucks" . i dont get that as much but people still dont get it sometimes.shows are always a crap shoot even ones you have done before... good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rcrew Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 I have been a full time gunsmith for the last 29 years. Two years ago we expanded, adding four more employees. It has taken longer to be come a business man than it did to become a gunsmith or blacksmith. As things slowed down you have to make changes you can't just stay the same and expect things to change. Local TV add has helped us this past year. Now I thought everyone knew me in this part of the state, because I had been at it so long. I was wrong people come in every day during and months after the add saying I saw ya'll on TV. There has been a lot of people move into our area in the last 29 years. I didn't think we had the money for the add but it has paid off big time. This has worked for me in these hard times and we are still here. I wish you all the best of luck, but don't just tie a hard knot and hold on. Make a move, go to a trade show, do something to get your work out to the public. God Bless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gpworks Posted January 12, 2010 Share Posted January 12, 2010 I would comment but won't.Everybody else said it first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Posted January 24, 2010 Share Posted January 24, 2010 In reference to what dablacksmith had to say...I get a lot of people who expect it to be cheaper, "after all, you made it yourself". And then there are the ones who want a special deal. Well, just because I give them a deal doesn't mean that my materials are less or my labor is less. I used to give special deals as I felt like some money was better than no money. I found that if I gave one person a deal the word got around and I was having to give everyone a deal. That has changed. I no longer give a deal. If they want it they will pay the price. I am not a production shop and each item is made one at a time. There is a lot of cheap stuff from Mexico, China, India, etc. But people who care can tell the difference and feel the difference. Fortunately the housing market is not very depressed here and there are plenty of millionaires here who are tire of the typical welding shop stuff (go to the steel supply place, buy parts, and weld them together). But yeah, general sales at demos and the like are down. People, in general, are strapped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWHII Posted January 24, 2010 Share Posted January 24, 2010 Last year really sucked for me. But in Sept. things started to change for me. Recently I have had a couple of old contractors contact me for work on custom homes. Also small jobs have been coming in on a regular basis. The iron market here in southern AZ is very competitive to say the least. Decorative iron of all types is very big out here. Seems like everone has a 110 mig and is putting burgular bars together in there carport and calling it blacksmith work. A lot of them get thier kids to do the work for them. Hard to compete with that and the worst part is there is no quality in what they do. I believe I am truly bless with what I have in these tough times. I also work a part time job to keep it going and have a very supportive wife. After reading Paul Teutul's book " The Ride Of A Life Time " you just can't quit if you really love what you are doing. B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spears Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 To answer one of your questions jason0012. Is the economy really that bad? The answer is YES. There are certain areas of the USA that are really struggling just to stay alive. I don't want to get into the political aspect of what's wrong only to have every liberal jump into this beautiful forum and stomp me into the ground, but we are in a recession of severe magnitude. Anyone who thinks this is a good thing is a bit misconceived. There are sources that say 77% of business investors see the president of the USA as anti-business. This isn't good even if you are self employed. Sources that buy what we are selling are fewer and fewer. Price corrections are yet to happen because everything is very expensive. Just the inputs of a common household i.e. food, gasoline, electricity, natural gas etc etc. are challenging to the common man's income. Until the pendulum swings back the other way things are going to be "thin" for awhile. Anorexic. Sympathy and regards, Spears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragons lair Posted January 26, 2010 Share Posted January 26, 2010 I think one of the biggest things I face is. The road side sellers selling import gezabos 12'dia. 8' Tall with leaves and scrolls for $375. I can't do the welding for that. or buy enough 1/4" rod. Yeah outsourceing. After 8 yrs the shop is nights and weekends now. Arteys not buying, Farmers not fixing. And the overhead goes on. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGropp Posted January 27, 2010 Share Posted January 27, 2010 Lots of work, but less money in it, it seems . Overhead is still right up there, though. Time to really get efficient in every facet of the business, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted January 28, 2010 Share Posted January 28, 2010 Spears: Oh, you did a great job of not getting into the political aspect. I'll list that one with some of my other favorites, like: "I don't mean to interrupt", just as they interrupt. Or "Not to change the subject" when what they want to do is change the subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted January 28, 2010 Share Posted January 28, 2010 SGropp: Very good point, indeed! I know that when thing are going well and I have plenty of work I don't always do things in the most efficient way. Still makin' money, so who cares, right? Well then the opposite must be true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted January 28, 2010 Share Posted January 28, 2010 You know my take is if a guy wants to work he will find something to work on... Now granted as a one man shop that has a hefty nut to crack I know sometimes its about finding the work that will cover the bills until next month... Now has it been that bad for me? Yes... my gross is down 40%... about $70,000 less than the year prior... my expenses stayed pretty much the same which make me operating at a huge loss for the year, and I mean huge... (lets just say I lost more money this year than I made in the last 5) My "shop" wont survive another year like this... but I will... I will be the last man standing.. I may be working out of my garage by the time we are done... and I might be welding with a 60 year old buzz box and have to finish everything by hand with a hunk of sandpaper... But I will make it... My advice is to show up to your shop an hour early, and stay an hour late, even if you have no "paying" work... Build something you have been wanting to make or work on your equipment, I have built more racks, stands and organizational things this year than in the last several combined, my shop is better organized that its ever been... I am rambling now, I guess you have to be realistic... I have plans and guides, Last spring I had started making plans to mothball my big equipment and move into a smaller space until I could recoup... I never had to... and things got way worse than I thgouht they would... I still have plans and contingents... but in the mean time I just keep working my tail off and at least I know I am doing every thing I can... And I will make it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryce Masuk Posted January 29, 2010 Share Posted January 29, 2010 Honestly most failures have to do with personality's than with reality People lose faith in themselves and stop trying because they find they are unsuccessful if work doesnt come to you, you must go to it sometimes when you fail ten times in row you figure its just not going to happen, you can never look at it that way a problem I find is I want more tools but I dont NEED them I can work with a hacksaw and file and still make money if required if your overly focused on capabiltys that you cant utilize then you are living in a fantasy world people who fail to back themselves with money, are similar to people who dont have a stockpile of food or water. and the reality is few people ever think about saving money unless its for retirement or a home, people never save because they might be out of a job at some point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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