No gas flux core welding

[Brasilikilt]

Hello all

I have a Millermatic 250 CV/DC welder that was previously set up for GMAW in the shop that I worked at.
When they gave me the machine, they asked that I leave the mostly full spool of wire and the leased tanks.
Here I am now with a perfectly good welder, but nothing to feed it.

The expense of buying a full spool of wire and leasing tanks is expensive, and I was wondering if I could use one of those small rolls of no gas FCAW wire, so that I may do a bunch of little things such as making hardy tools and a better fire pot for the forge.
I'm guessing that this No gas FCAW wire would be a bit like a continuous welding rod in it's application....Am I close to being right about this?

I've asked some of the more skilled welders that I know, and have gotten mixed answers. One Blacksmith/Welder friend of mine said that he uses the little 'no gas' flux wire rolls from Home Depot in a Lincoln Buzz Box and sees very good results...some others say not to bother as it produces inferior welds.

I'm just needing to do some work, don't have a lot of money for welding supplies, and just want to know if these welds would be strong enough to work for the time being.

I was hoping some of you veteran welders might chime in with your thoughts.

Thanks

Iain

[200yearstoolate]

As far as I know, there is nothing stopping you from using flux core wire in that machine. However, bear in mind that welding with flux wire is messy and will not produce welds as strong as GMAW. If you're just doing light work like making hardy tools and such, you won't have a problem aside from cleaning up the messy flux splatter. As with most any welding, the cleaner the steel, the better the weld. Moral of the story... as long as you're not building a car frame or something else your life might depend on, flux will work. Have fun cleaning the mess.

[pkrankow]

You may have to clean/change tips from sputter balls that flux core is known for making, but flux core is equivalent to gas shield when used for the appropriate tasks. Flux core is also supposed to have better penetration, but this is at the sacrifice of surface finish, so it is more appropriate for welding your fire pot out of mild steel.

Have fun.

Phil

[Rich Hale]

I use a stick welder for heavy stuff and a mig with flux core wire for everything else. Go to a welding store and get two things. A spray can of the stuff that stops the spatter balls from sticking and a small tub that you stick the tips in so they do not build up with spatter. if you want to weld something alittle heavy with that set up preheat the item a bit..maybe enough that if you touch the heated metal with a piece of paper it will discolor a bit. then weld away.
All of my welding is outside and a gas shield set up just would not work at all for me as the slightest breeze washes the gas away.

[arftist]

Flux core is not weaker than hard wire mig, by any means. I can't imagine where that misconception is coming from. If anything the oposite is true. With the 250 amp miller, adjust the voltage to spray arc and if you are using E-70 or better wire, your welds are as strong as stick and stronger than most MIG welds. In the long run, though, you will actualy find the flux core more expensive to use. Get a small owner tank of CO2, and a 10 pound spool of hard wire. By the way, keeping the leased tanks was cool, but keeping the wire in the machine was just cheap.

[Rio Bravo]

I'll confirm what was said in the previous post...flux core welds are not inferior to MIG welds. Also the surface appearance is not inferior; but there is slag created so you spend more time cleaning them up to get there.

The comment about deeper penetration is correct. If you're most familiar with MIG welding you'll need to dial down the amps compared to what you're used to.

The draw back to the no-gas flux core wire is that the materials need to be very clean to avoid porosity.

I use no-gas flux core wire exclusively because the amount I weld has not warranted getting a gas bottle. The cost per lb is more than the solid wire but it gets the job done and you should have no concerns. I would suggest using a quality brand of wire.

Good luck!

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

The flux core is fine to use. It digs in deeper, and can be used outside in a windy day. More splatter, but that can be managed easily enough.

As for a bottle later, I would say buy one, do not lease. When I had my shop we figured that if we had them more than 5 years it was cheaper to buy than lease. The larger bottle is also cheaper to fill than a smaller bottle, around $25 to fill a large Co2. I always used straight Co2 with my MIGs. More splatter, but deeper penetration. My welding supply shop just exchanged the bottles that we owned, made it easy, and they handled the hydro tests as long as we were buying the gases from them.

[jgstroh]

Gas cylinders aren't expensive,you can rent /lease them or buy used tanks. even if you have the valve changed (oxygen to argon/other )with the tank test it is well worth the $$ when you consider the ease of point and shoot welding ( mig ) with no slag cleanup.

[Dragons lair]

Don't forget you have to switch the polarity. Buy the tank. Where I am its about 2.5 yrs to break even.
Ken.

[Brasilikilt]

Thanks for all the feedback! It definitely reassures me that my thought process was on the right track.
Just a little something to remind me that my welding cert. course wasn't completely wasted :-)

I did a little net searching and saw that the FCAW wire is definitely more expensive than regular mild steel wire, but for now I won't have to buy a tank, which makes it much cheaper for me on a short-term basis.

I've been certified with FCAW, but my welding was always shielded with gas, and without gas, my welds always came out looking like they came out of a dog's back end, so I never really had considered a gas-less flux wire as a viable alternative.

I will head out and get some of this wire and start putting my stuff together. There's certainly quite a few little things that I've been wanting to weld up, and it seems like this wire will do the trick!

Thanks again for your responses, I'll be sure to post my projects on the forum to show everyone how it all turns out

Iain

[Brasilikilt]

Thanks for all the feedback! It definitely reassures me that my thought process was on the right track.
Just a little something to remind me that my welding cert. course wasn't completely wasted :-)

I did a little net searching and saw that the FCAW wire is definitely more expensive than regular mild steel wire, but for now I won't have to buy a tank, which makes it much cheaper for me on a short-term basis.

I've been certified with FCAW, but my welding was always shielded with gas, and without gas, my welds always came out looking like they came out of a dog's back end, so I never really had considered a gas-less flux wire as a viable alternative.

I will head out and get some of this wire and start putting my stuff together. There's certainly quite a few little things that I've been wanting to weld up, and it seems like this wire will do the trick!

Thanks again for your responses, I'll be sure to post my projects on the forum to show everyone how it all turns out

Iain

[Brasilikilt]

Thanks for all the feedback! It definitely reassures me that my thought process was on the right track.
Just a little something to remind me that my welding cert. course wasn't completely wasted :-)

I did a little net searching and saw that the FCAW wire is definitely more expensive than regular mild steel wire, but for now I won't have to buy a tank, which makes it much cheaper for me on a short-term basis.

I've been certified with FCAW, but my welding was always shielded with gas, and without gas, my welds always came out looking like they came out of a dog's back end, so I never really had considered a gas-less flux wire as a viable alternative.

I will head out and get some of this wire and start putting my stuff together. There's certainly quite a few little things that I've been wanting to weld up, and it seems like this wire will do the trick!

Thanks again for your responses, I'll be sure to post my projects on the forum to show everyone how it all turns out

Iain

[Dragons lair]

Just a little info. Gas is clean, flux is messey but deep, Flux with gas is clean and deep If you have the heat
Built motion theaters for yrs. All the heavy weldments were done at 450 amps with flux core and 75 25 gas mix.
Think a 8 ton assembly changinging directions in 1/10 of a sec. Flux self peeling. Looked like heliarc.
Ken.

[RedLeg0811]

Just a little info. Gas is clean, flux is messey but deep, Flux with gas is clean and deep If you have the heat
Built motion theaters for yrs. All the heavy weldments were done at 450 amps with flux core and 75 25 gas mix.
Think a 8 ton assembly changinging directions in 1/10 of a sec. Flux self peeling. Looked like heliarc.
Ken.

I second this. I use hardwire for light weight welding and dual shield for and have welding. Dual shield is a specific flux core used with gas it is not regular flux core used with gas. Any of your FCAW is considered structrual where hardwire is not per AWS.


Arftist, Spray arc is not just turning up the heat it requires gas. It also requires a mixer to mix argon and Oxygen, argon and hellium, or argon and a small amount of Co2. Also since this proccess has a large weld pool it is usually used on flat or horizontal welds, and not used on root passes.

Martin

[Mainely,Bob]

Take alittle time and do the research and you`ll find that there have been advances made that bring the old FCAW up to as good as or surpassing SMAW for the appropriate applications.
It`s well worth the little extra money you may pay buying wire from a welding supply house with access to their tech support as opposed to buying whatever the local building supply has laying on the shelf with zero tech support or advice.
welding wire on spools must meet the same standards as stick or Tig.You can get spec sheets from Lincoln or Hobart(the big 2 up here)that give specs on yield and tensile strengths as well as approx. wire speed and voltage just like you can for stick or Tig filler.
You could even go to Lincoln and look up the specs for that small spool you just bought at the "Borg" as they usually stock lincoln products.I think you`ll find that the straight flux core(no gas) from HD or Lowe`s is equal to 6010 SMAW (stick) at least up here it is.

[MLMartin]

Well gas wire welding will definitely be cheaper in the long run. but if you do use Flux Core wire, make sure to use the Flux core wire that is labeled gas less. there are lots of flux core wires that do require gas (this my be why when at school you could not get the flux core wire to run right without gas). also make sure to use the right mig gun, many people just use the gun thats made to work with gas for flux core, this can something damage the gun. there are guns specifically made to work with flux core wire.

so after having to buy the flux wire and a new gun, i think it would be much cheaper to just buy mig wire and a bottle of gas

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

I differ with the spray arc explanation above. I have done spray arc with straight argon,this was with aluminum. Did you suggest all spray arc welding required a mix, or just steel?

[Mainely,Bob]

No need to buy a complete new gun,but you may need to buy new rollers depending on wire size.
When we changed from GMAW(mig) to FCAW(flux cored) we just changed the nozzle(smaller opening size to cut spatter on the tip) and the contacter tips(the FCAW wire we used was usually larger diameter).
We also used the same hose and gun(Tweco brand)for aluminum mig welding except we changed the liner for that(rollers too).

It is also my understanding that spray arc for steel requires shield gas(and higher amps/voltage).It`s the only way I ever heard of doing it properly for steel.It does require a small percentage of oxygen in the shield gas but we always got ours premixed and ran that without using a mixer to add the O2.
I used to run alot of flux cored wire with shield gas when welding stainless.If I remember correctly we used tri-mix for the shield gas.When done well to did look alot like it was just poured into place.Far less post weld finishing than TIG welding if you`re making yacht hardware that needs to have a buffed finish.

I do have to agree with whoever said that buying small reels of no gas flux core is false economy.Buy a bunch of small reels or buy one med to lrg reel and in the end you went thru the same amount of wire (in theory) and have the same result except for the fact that 1-you wasted alot of your time changing all those reels and rethreading the wire(plus you lose the length of your hose in wire every time you rethread) 2-you have all those little reels hanging around and 3- most importantly,you paid a LOT more for less welded wire.
It once again all comes down to that good tech support you get with going thru a welding supply distributor.The rep can tell you what you need to change on your feeder,weld parameters to get you going and what shield gas is best.In the end you save money even if they do want to charge a dollar more for a small reel of wire than Home Despot(not a misspelling).

[RedLeg0811]

Hey Big Gun Dr,

Yeah I totally spaced Aluminum. I have done very little aluminum spray arc and it has been awhile since I have done steel spray arc. My main point was that it isn't just a matter of turning up the juice to spray arc.

So when you say big Gun Dr are we talking howitzers? If so I used to be a cannon cocker on M198s.

Bob, you are probably correct that you don't need a mixer, that was how I learned and we would adjust it slightly to get the best weld out of it. Again it has been awhile since I have done spray arc, but I remember when doing stainless there was argon mixed with hellium, can't remember if there was a third, but I think there was.

Cheers

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

The mixes were probably to get optimal penetration, and bead. IIRC helium will give better penetration on aluminum than argon. When I did the aluminum it was basically jumping the power up, and slowly turning the wire speed down until it started to spray. The beads were around 5/8" wide, and i had to be careful not to blow through the 5/8" top cap. The pipe had a 1" wall. These were being made into the drums on a rotary labeler for a winery.

As to my handle. It goes back about 15 years now when I needed an Ebay handle. I was doing gunsmithing at the time, and wanted something that referenced that. Gunsmith, and its various variations were already taken. My previous business partner came up with BIGGUNDOCTOR which had not been taken yet, so I went with it, even though I am only 5'10" and a fairly slender guy. He mentioned that depending on how it was read it could also be taken as Biggun Doctor . Over the years it just kinda stuck, so I have used that one on all of the gun forums, as well as others that I use.

My Dad built 1" to the foot scale models of blackpowder cannons, and I do like to see arty being used. I need to see if the picture of me standing with a Barret M82A1, and an Anzio Ironworks 20MM rifle is still around. The AI makes the .50 look like a .22 I have friends who own some artillery pieces which they occasionally take out and shoot.They also play lawn darts in the desert with their 60MM mortars Some of the joys of living in Nevada.

[Mainely,Bob]

Hey Guns,Ever direct fired a 60 mm?The ones our 11C`s carried had that capability.

Don`t feel bad Redleg.I totally spaced that aluminum needs to be spray arced too and then had to go back and edit when I read Big Gun`s post.BTW-I figured you for a "gunbunny" ;)

[arftist]

I second this. I use hardwire for light weight welding and dual shield for and have welding. Dual shield is a specific flux core used with gas it is not regular flux core used with gas. Any of your FCAW is considered structrual where hardwire is not per AWS.


Arftist, Spray arc is not just turning up the heat it requires gas. It also requires a mixer to mix argon and Oxygen, argon and hellium, or argon and a small amount of Co2. Also since this proccess has a large weld pool it is usually used on flat or horizontal welds, and not used on root passes.

Martin

Read what I said again. Adjust the voltage to spray arc. By the way, spray arc can also be done with just CO2, with innershield or hard wire.

For stainless, helium, argon and CO2 is probably the most common.

Also, root passes can be done on spray arc with proper preparation. (temporary or permanent backer bar)
and even without a backer bar, by spotting, still on spray transfer.

[Mainely,Bob]

Hey guys,I occurs to me we`re getting a little far afield here and hijacking the thread talking about the micro nuances of welding.
I`m enjoying the discussion,I`m just wondering if we might be twisting the fellow who posed the question`s head into overload.
I noticed he`s not posting follow up questions,maybe he seized up.
He did send his last post 3 times. :blink:

[arftist]

Hey guys,I occurs to me we`re getting a little far afield here and hijacking the thread talking about the micro nuances of welding.
I`m enjoying the discussion,I`m just wondering if we might be twisting the fellow who posed the question`s head into overload.
I noticed he`s not posting follow up questions,maybe he seized up.
He did send his last post 3 times.

From what I have read on this thread, every post has something to contribute about wire feed welding, which is what the original post is about, and most of the posts are fluxcore specific as well.

[Mainely,Bob]

Just wondering if Brasilikilt is OK and if he finds our ramblings at all useful.
Wanted to make sure he wasn`t passed out with his finger on the mouse and twitching(as evidenced by the triple post). :)