Mrs. A-W Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 HAPPY New Year 2010!, Clarification comment, please see-read below. Good intentions pave the road to ______, so this New Year I have to make the rings with strap hangers I've planned to make, tried to purchase, but couldn't afford those I did-could find. The best description I can offer is a hitching ring about 3" - 4" diameter about 3/6" - 5/8" thick loosely hung from a 3/4" - 1 1/4" wide strap maybe 3/16" thick with at least 1 prefer 2 1/4" mounting holes? Technically they will be decorative, but at minimum they should be able to work as tie out rings in a horse stall / barn. I'd like them to look as close to wrought iron as practical if there's a way to use mild steel and give it the finish - appearance of wrought iron. To save time, effort, and heat, I'm willing to purchase machine welded rings, if available. They do not have to be forge welded closed (unless someone LOL is offering 6 - 10 at 'fire sale' pricing). Any suggestions - advice on how best to create a wrought iron - forged look without the 'real thing' since they will not have to be historically accurate, will be GREATLY appreciated! One and ALL, be WELL 'n be SAFE! Mrs. R A-W I apologize if my inquiry above sounded as if I was requesting - seeking bids / quotes to make the rings and hangers. My purse is thin so I was (am) seeking information about how to create the appearance of hand worked/forged - wrought iron without the expense. I can order 3" - 4" ID 1/2" stock rings for around $5.00 each, I have or can easily purchase 1" X ? 3/16"? flat stock which I can form around the rings as hangers and drill the mounting holes. I do not have a forge, but can heat (fire / Oxy-acetylene) and hammer etc. Sorry if I mislead anyone. I can/will gladly offer - share info / instruction / suggestions / advice, but chances are I can't afford to pay someone else for the LABOR and material. Be WELL and be SAFE! Mrs. R A-W Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvillain Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 HAPPY New Year 2010!, Good intentions pave the road to ______, so this New Year I have to make the rings with strap hangers I've planned to make, tried to purchase, but couldn't afford those I did-could find. The best description I can offer is a hitching ring about 3" - 4" diameter about 3/6" - 5/8" thick loosely hung from a 3/4" - 1 1/4" wide strap maybe 3/16" thick with at least 1 prefer 2 1/4" mounting holes? Technically they will be decorative, but at minimum they should be able to work as tie out rings in a horse stall / barn. I'd like them to look as close to wrought iron as practical if there's a way to use mild steel and give it the finish - appearance of wrought iron. To save time, effort, and heat, I'm willing to purchase machine welded rings, if available. They do not have to be forge welded closed (unless someone LOL is offering 6 - 10 at 'fire sale' pricing). Any suggestions - advice on how best to create a wrought iron - forged look without the 'real thing' since they will not have to be historically accurate, will be GREATLY appreciated! One and ALL, be WELL 'n be SAFE! Mrs. R A-W Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvillain Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 Hello Mrs A-W rings like you describe should not be prohibitively expensive. Most blacksmith's would be able to forge weld those nearly as easily as electric welding since the easiest way to bend them would be with high heat. I would scarf them before turning them, and then another heat to bring up to welding temp. They would LOOK authentic and would BE authentic. The nice thing about welding rings like that is that you form them so the scarfs are in the right position before bringing to a welding heat. Often my biggest problem in forge welding is getting every thing in the exact position in the few seconds while the welding heat remains. If you were nearby I would help you or show you. I recommend mild steel about 7/16" or 1/2" dia. Nothing wrong with wrought iron either but you will probably pay a premium for it. Richard Stephens Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 Stop by my forge and you are welcome to use my equipment to make these and I will help (and try to talk you into using real wrought iron---a buggy tyre would be appropriate for the straps!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 ... a hitching ring about 3" - 4" diameter... at minimum they should be able to work as tie out rings in a horse stall / barn. I'd like them to look as close to wrought iron as practical ...... Mrs. R A-W Mrs. RAW, 1) In my experience with horses and a tie-out ring that I installed on the side of our barn, I would suggest to keep in mind that a horse is a very strong animal, an anchor from the hardware store lasted less than 3 seconds. Using material and anchors that are much heavier than you think that you need, for the ring, fasteners, and especially a backing plate on the other side of the wall so that the force is one the wall and not on the threads of screws might be worth considering. 2) Blacksmiths have always taken pride in their work. Often a smith's work is of a quality that it may be difficult to differentiate between something that was machined and/or electrically welded. The cast-iron items frequently sold in hardware stores claiming to have a "blacksmith-like" finish are at best misleading, at worst insulting to the quality of work produced by skilled artisans throughout the history of ironwork. Well made tie-out rings made by a smith may be difficult to differentiate from store-bought ones unless designed and specifically textured to look different. Well made forge welds also can be nearly impossible to differentiate from cleaned-up electric welds. .... I can order 3" - 4" ID 1/2" stock rings for around $5.00 each, I have or can easily purchase 1" X ? 3/16"? flat stock which I can form around the rings as hangers and drill the mounting holes. I do not have a forge, but can heat (fire / Oxy-acetylene) and hammer etc... I can't afford to pay someone else for the LABOR and material. Oxy-acetylene is fine, many folks have started out by heating their iron that way. I don't know where you live, but there is a pretty good chance that there is a blacksmithing group within driving distance, and/or smiths willing to help you learn using their equipment. The 1/2" stock rings sound possible if they are of a steel alloy that will not bend under the force exerted by your horses, as some rings might be too soft for your purpose. I personally would not use 1 by 3/16 flat stock, rather I would suggest at least a 1/2" round stock bent around the 4" ring welded into a ring around the larger ring, to serve as a pivot point, and I would humbly suggest the other end of the rod (a threaded end) to go all the way through the wall, and through a 2" square or larger plate on the other side of the wall so that the force exerted by a horse is against the plate and not against the relatively shallow threads on any screws. Liability is also an issue that you might wish to consider. I am not a lawyer, nor do I pretend to be an expert on the law, but common sense says that if someone especially a child is harmed due to any of your tie-out rings failing, the legal and financial fall-out could be rather frightening. Also, horses have the unique ability to find ways to injure themselves, so all surfaces and edges etc need to be carefully finished and the hardware installed with the thought that a horse will somehow find a way to push and rub against it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 Hi Mrs A-W Don't know where you are, but if you have horses, why not have a word with your farrier, he should be able to help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Thompson Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 What on earth are you doing to scare the horses so badly that they need to be tied to rings made from 5/8'' steel? People tie small ships up to that kind of thing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 What on earth are you doing to scare the horses so badly that they need to be tied to rings made from 5/8'' steel? People tie small ships up to that kind of thing! Our horses tended to weigh over 1200 pounds. The horses we had were badly abused (hit, starved, etc) by their previous owner, and we were trying to remove old dried feces from their hair at the time one of them yanked a ring out of the side of our barn. On another day, one of the horses kicked me and tried to stomp me to death because I did not have any treats to give her. Fortunately I was able to roll under a fence before she could finish the job. Horses tend to be unpredictably skittish, and abused animals take a lot of time and being very careful while rehabilitating them. Also horses used to tow small ships up canals. PS: In case you are interested, it took six months to remove all the dried feces from their hair. We had to do it slowly over time probably because having dried and caked feces removed from your hair is, in the least, uncomfortable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bentiron1946 Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 My neighbor has horses and they are odd creatures. She also has a mule and it is a tad bit different than the horses, calmer in a bad situation but not always. When I mad her some hitch rings for her stalls I made them out of half inch stock through a flattened three quarter bolt that went through a four by four box tube rail. Bad mistake for sure after all was said and done. The wall thickness on the box tube was less than an eighth of an inch and when the horse lunged the rail collapsed and bent out about two feet, broke from the posts and the danged horse was jumping and plunging around like crazy and the mule just stood there on the other side of the stall and didn't move until everything calmed down and then it kicked the horse twice real quick. That nylon tack is real strong stuff too. All my work held up real well but who ever built the stalls didn't do to good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Thompson Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 The barges on canals were usually towed using rope which was connected using rings made from 1/2 stock. Anything larger is pointless. The big problem, as Bentiron says is the strength of the attachment to the wall, post etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry H Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 Well if you want to do it by yourself. try this...Buy the size rings you want , buy machine thread eye hooks put them through and weld closed , cut a plate the size you desire ( and it should be square) Put four corner mounting holes and one in the center to bolt the eye hook through. Before mounting, heat them up with your torch red hot ,( its better if you have a fire place or forge ) try to produce the dreaded scale on all pieces. do not quench, let cool slowly repeat as necessary the age will come. If it is to hold a horse, Bolt through the wall and use a backer plate or washer, the halter will break before any thing else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 Hammered steel rings in 1/2 inch can be had from: http://www.kingmetals.com/Default.aspx?page=category%20search%20results&CatList=32332&Parent=906&tree=899*Rings*0@@906*[X]+1/2%22+Hot+Hammered+Round+Bar-Steel+Rings*32332@@ Bout 79 cents each! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bentiron1946 Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 At 79 cents why bother to light a fire in the forge! I bet if she looks around some more there be what is wanted already made up. Looks more and more like a fools errand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBrann Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 Having horses myself, I know they are hard on everything. Tack, stalls, the bodies of those who ride or care for them... nerves ... the list goes on... If the rings are to be for cross ties ...I usually put a couple loops of baling twine between the tie and the rings.. a weak link so the horse does not pull down the barn... .. the same horse on a different days may be fine with the green water hose on the floor... or very frightened of the very same green snake hose monster monster on another day... 5/8" may be over kill for strength... but it has a larger cross section radius ... which will allow a rope to hold more weight before parting... that may be part of the idea... also in winter.. larger ring/ larger diameter stock.. you can tie with gloves on... I like the suggestion of contacting the farrier... or local blacksmith group... hands on rules! good luck, and I would love to hear the end of this story... Cliff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs. A-W Posted January 7, 2010 Author Share Posted January 7, 2010 Well, it looks like another apology - explanation is in order. I used the term horse hitching rings for explanation-description, not intended use sorry if I wasn't clear. We've moved into a New home that incorporates 8" X 8" (living space, 12" X 8" in the basement) cedar post and beam design/construction. The 'hitching rings' will be mounted to/on the cedar posts. No we don't plan to have any well behaved NOR 'rank' horses inside. We have steel plates joining - securing post joints (no sufficiently LARGE cedars could be found long enough to have 22' post (12 X 8 bottom and 8 X 8 top) and the posts-beams. So, if thinking of the 'hitching rings' as decorations - ornaments helps GREAT, otherwise suffice to say they don't have to hold a wild horse, just wild guests. LOL Be WELL and be SAFE! Mrs. R A-W Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 Ahhh "ornamental" now you can go wild with them. Personally I would forge the rings and the straps from farriers rasps, twisting the ring stock after forged round and before ringing it, to give it an appropriate look. Buggy tyre would still make a good strap and was a very common material for re use back in the day---I've seen examples of hinges, straps, door hardware, mending plates, tools, etc made from tyre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Thompson Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 So, what you want is a skilled smith to condense the experience of years into a few lines so that you can take trade away from your local craftsmen. It hasn't crossed your mind that what we do may be more than just a knack? You don't seem to have much respect for our trade. Unless you have a friend in the business you get what you're prepared to pay for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 Agree entirely with Sam, and this probably links in appropriately to the "Business Side of Blacksmithing" forum under the title 'Where did the work go' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 John, Another way to look at it: the armourers I know are generally quite willing to help folk attempt such stuff for they know that nothing makes good armour look dead cheap to a person than them having found out what goes into making it themselves! Same for the knifemakers. I noticed that the year I did the best at the Festival of the Cranes I sold most of my stuff on setting up and tearing down days---to other craftspeople there. *They* know what goes into good hand work and so the price doesn't scare them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 absolutely - not nec relating to you mrs raw coz i dont know you but if someone thinks what youre doing is easy, then letting them try even the most basic part of the job is a good leveller. We used to get this all the time doing tree work when peole raised an eyebrow at the price, wether its skill or hard graft they are questioning, the best way to sort it out is to say go on then, you try :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bentiron1946 Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 Amen, Beth, That's how I got in to metals big time. A friend needed some castings and the prices were, well big bucks. I started doing research and set up my own foundry and soon found out why they were charging the big bucks to do the job. When I worked in an engineering office people would walk in off the street and want a house plan drawn and then nearly faint when we wrote up a proposal and they saw the cost per hour for different emplyees, I was the cheap guy at $100/hr. at that time. The thought of paying for a skilled craftsman is so far away from most peoples minds it is frighting. Skill will cost you money to hire and not many are willing to pay for it which is sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted January 12, 2010 Share Posted January 12, 2010 yeah thats right - it is sad, and hard not to take it personally when that same person is quite happy to pay through the nose to get some colors put in their hair or whatever! but you only have to look at all those great people who care for sick or old people etc or do the rubbish collection and the value is just not reflected in the pay. its wrong but its always been there i guess. what i struggle with is the implication that i have overcharged on a job when i know ive actually barely made anything. A lot of people will never grasp that what youre charging as a self employed person is not what youre taking home and giving to your family! i may not be a master craftsman but the customer still cant do it themselves or they wouldnt be asking would they !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Thompson Posted January 12, 2010 Share Posted January 12, 2010 When I went 'bust' twelve years ago, I didn't notice many of the people I'd helped queuing up to help me, although some of them turned up, like vultures to see what tools, stock etc. they could buy cheap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 At 79 cents why bother to light a fire in the forge! I bet if she looks around some more there be what is wanted already made up. Looks more and more like a fools errand. Fool's errand? No matter Grant got it so fast! <snicker> One good reason to use 1/2" rd as a minimum is to help protect the rope. Using something like 1" x 7/16 would almost guarantee a cut rope in short order. Oh yeah, we raised horses for a decade or so when I was a kid. The only "rings" we had we asked the farrier to make for us when he was out. He bent the heals of a couple horse shoes 90* and punched 3/8" (I think) holes for through bolts and lastly he narrowed them a bit. Charged us $1.00 each but it would've been quite a bit more if I'd actually tried helping. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 Ease up a little eh guys? Mrs. A W was asking about something she wanted to take a lash at making herself. She listed what she had for tools and equipment and described what she wanted to make. I don't recall her saying it'd be easy though I'm pretty sure she didn't want to know the most difficult method. I don't recall her asking for the easiest either. Just how do I? Sure her description of the piece led a lot of us (myself included) to think she wanted something appropriate for tying horses. Has a little misunderstanding like THIS happened here before? How about asking the gang the old, "How do I x x x" question? If someone wasn't asking how do do x or how strong should x be? or any number of questions this forum wouldn't be worth participating on. Mrs. A-W asked a legitimate question, could've been a bit clearer and has been polite all round. She's in Ky but if she were in AK I'd invite her over and show her everything I know about the craft and no charge. One of the things I love about IFI is there is very little of the pretentiouos bs you often see on other specialty interest fora. There is very little in the way of flaming. Many if not most of the gang actually DO this stuff and don't mind sharing what they know. I may be wrong (pretty common don'tchaknow) but I THINK we've helped a LOT of people get started with both advice, knowledge and encouragement. I don't know what's different about this question but I'm honored so many people ask these kinds of questions here. Welcome aboard Mrs. A-W glad to have you. If some yahoo(s) make you feel uncomfortable asking questions please ask me I'll be honored and proud to do my best for you AND I'll personally light the Yahoos up like a dry puckerbush. Glad to have you Mrs. A-W. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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