Building a air hammer....

[monstermetal]

Well for about the last 5 years I have been saying I was going to build a air hammer.. Basically this stems from my using a Bull hammer in my shop for number of years that was on loan..

The fabrication of the hammer and the guide system I pretty well have worked out. Its going to be about a 100lb tup weight and use linear bearings as guides. I have no need of a "power hammer" in the conventional sense, what I need is a striker.. The Nazel, Chambersburg and Say Mak will do any grunt work beautifully, and can be called upon to do top tool work, but I want the ability to land both light and hard blows.. single ultra controllable blows.. I guess best comparison would be "ultra" treadle hammer to be used with hand held tooling... My issue is the air control of the hammer. This thing to be worth the effort and floor space should be able to tap like a 4 oz ball pein or have a massive 100lb wollup... exactly when and how I want.. If not, then it will be worthless... I have a 10hp three phase compressor in the shop but the other thing is I would like to make this semi portable to take to conferences or workshops for the benefit of our group (NWBA) so building something that works with a 5PH portable compressor would be ideal...

I know this is not what most people envision when talking about a air hammer but I was wondering if anyone out there has any experience with something like this, or has any other ideas? I basically have everything (other than time) to build this and feel like I am in a good spot to start doing something...

[Larry H]

the problem with air hammers is the volume of air you need to get that big wallop, I'm not sure how many cfm's a portable compressor will deliver. The less air, the smaller piston used, the smaller the piston, less bang Try the kinyon hammer from ABANA, the valving works pretty good and there are different valve configurations to give one hit or repeated hits,after you use it for a while you get control of the ram pretty good.

[monstermetal]

the problem with air hammers is the volume of air you need to get that big wallop, I'm not sure how many cfm's a portable compressor will deliver. The less air, the smaller piston used, the smaller the piston, less bang Try the kinyon hammer from ABANA, the valving works pretty good and there are different valve configurations to give one hit or repeated hits,after you use it for a while you get control of the ram pretty good.

Your argument is valid for a kinyon style hammer... But I am talking about a single blow striking hammer. It will require a small fraction of the air a constantly reciprocating hammer half its size would consume. When I am talking about control I am talking about being able to bring the ram down slow and just touch the top of a tool... with no "blow" to speak of... How do you get that positive proportional and positionable control... I know Grant knows a way to make it happen.. Im just curious if there are any real world examples or other machines out there and how they solved the problem

This is the goal..
My link

Or at the end of this video it shows some single blow work...
My link

[David Einhorn]

I saw Nick V. in Maryland demonstrate that level of control when using his Kuhn air hammer. I am afraid that does not answer your question very well, except where you ask if we have seen other brands and models that have those features.
He was able to close a matchbox without damaging it, as well as deliver a single massive blow if and when desired.
http://www.beautifuliron.com/gs_air_hammers_kuhn.htm

[chichi]

If you cannot build what you are looking for, I believe the KA75 built by Bob Bergman is what you need. It is made for striking hand held tools. I believe you can find Bob at Postville blacksmith shop in Postville Wi.He is a good guy and this tool is sweet. I have no financial interest in the business (wish I did).
Bob S.

[monstermetal]

If you cannot build what you are looking for, I believe the KA75 built by Bob Bergman is what you need. It is made for striking hand held tools. I believe you can find Bob at Postville blacksmith shop in Postville Wi.He is a good guy and this tool is sweet. I have no financial interest in the business (wish I did).
Bob S.

your right. A KA75 is much like what I need. It would be a fine tool. I just want something that is slightly larger and I have all the parts to construct it so buying one does not exite me. And I agree. Bob is a great guy

[Judson Yaggy]

I'd build one like Ralph Sproul's shown here http://www.bearhillblacksmith.com/plans_available.htm No financial connection between Ralph and I, he's just a smart, great guy. Lots of folks around here have his style of hammer, and I can personally attest that they have outstanding control. Can be run like a treadle hammer by dialing down the air pressure, stroke can be adjusted by sliding the limit switch up and down.

It's my understanding that Grant/Bob's machine runs two cylinders, one for the up stroke and another for down. If I'm stepping on proprietary toes here someone please let me know.

I too had thought about linear bearings when I started my hammer build, but suspected that they wouldn't like the impact side loading they would sometimes get. Would love to hear how they work out for you.

[finn;-)]

Part of what gives you the control over the power of the blow is of course the length of the stroke. With a really short fall even a heavy ram isn't going to delevier a lot of energy, but if you accelerate over 18" it can pack quite a wallup. So I would look at steam hammer controls, and/or the sliding limiter switches. The other thing that cushions the blow is how the ram is caught at the bottom of the stroke, by the 'uptake limiter'. I don't really know how to soften the turn around to get the really gentle soft taps (as far as doctoring the control circuits that is, I can feather an air hammer down with the treadle but how it really works is still kinda magic to me ;-)

The stroke length arm, and the actuator arm on the steam hammer are great for this kind of thing but require a driver. Adjustable limiter stitches, could be made quickly adjudtsble, and you could still use a foot treadle. John's Iron Kiss hammer kinda combines both, I would explore things in that direction, tons of stroke, and the ability to use the full length of it...

[Ferguson]

The topic of using an air hammer as a single blow hammer is one that I have been thinking about quite a bit. I don’t have room for both a treadle hammer and an air hammer. I would like to propose a solution which would be 100% controllable.

There are two key elements to my plan: An industrial timer and an electrically controlled air valve.

Most Kinyon hammers use a single air microswitch, which drives the main air valve, moving the head up and down. They usually also have a ball valve, to restrict airflow and control how hard it hits.

If you design a “standard” Kinyon hammer, you can add the industrial timer and an electrically controlled air valve. You might also need a valve to bypass the ball valve used to control air flow. The standard Kinyon controls would be installed in parallel with the electric controls, so one could use the hammer as a conventional Kinyon, or for precise single hits.

You hook up an electric foot pedal to the industrial timer. When you push the pedal, the timer turns the valve on for an exact time. That time will limit how hard it will hit. You could also control the hit by using a large (high flow) pressure regulator on the input. It might be best to plan for both the timer/valve and the pressure regulator; between the two one should be able to program any hit force desired, and have it more or less completely repeatable, since a digital industrial timer is very accurate. A good pressure regulator is also repeatable, given a decent gauge.

The pressure regulator could be useful for ordinary power hammer use, when you need light hits. The timer/valve combo is what makes it a repeatable single-hit hammer.

I have seen someone use a treadle hammer for repousse work, using a foot pedal connected to an air cylinder. He installed a stop to prevent crushing his hand. Such a stop could be added to a hammer of this type, such that one could use the air hammer for that purpose as well, again using the timer/valve combo. With the timer/valve combo, the stop might not be necessary, as the head might reverse before bottoming out and crushing your hand; of course a mechanical stop would be an additional safety factor

You were asking about running this on a small compressor. That should be no problem for single hits, as the compressor tank will store enough air for a single hit, if not enough to run it continuously for 30 seconds. You might need large hoses to get adequate airflow.

The concept is one hammer which can be used as a conventional air hammer, a treadle hammer, or a programmable single hit hammer. If anybody is interested in pursuing this approach I could help you pick out a suitable timer and electric valve; with an industrial timer, the wiring is pretty trivial, the brains are in the timer.

Richard

[monstermetal]

The topic of using an air hammer as a single blow hammer is one that I have been thinking about quite a bit. I don’t have room for both a treadle hammer and an air hammer. I would like to propose a solution which would be 100% controllable.

There are two key elements to my plan: An industrial timer and an electrically controlled air valve.

Most Kinyon hammers use a single air microswitch, which drives the main air valve, moving the head up and down. They usually also have a ball valve, to restrict airflow and control how hard it hits.

If you design a “standard” Kinyon hammer, you can add the industrial timer and an electrically controlled air valve. You might also need a valve to bypass the ball valve used to control air flow. The standard Kinyon controls would be installed in parallel with the electric controls, so one could use the hammer as a conventional Kinyon, or for precise single hits.

You hook up an electric foot pedal to the industrial timer. When you push the pedal, the timer turns the valve on for an exact time. That time will limit how hard it will hit. You could also control the hit by using a large (high flow) pressure regulator on the input. It might be best to plan for both the timer/valve and the pressure regulator; between the two one should be able to program any hit force desired, and have it more or less completely repeatable, since a digital industrial timer is very accurate. A good pressure regulator is also repeatable, given a decent gauge.

The pressure regulator could be useful for ordinary power hammer use, when you need light hits. The timer/valve combo is what makes it a repeatable single-hit hammer.

I have seen someone use a treadle hammer for repousse work, using a foot pedal connected to an air cylinder. He installed a stop to prevent crushing his hand. Such a stop could be added to a hammer of this type, such that one could use the air hammer for that purpose as well, again using the timer/valve combo. With the timer/valve combo, the stop might not be necessary, as the head might reverse before bottoming out and crushing your hand; of course a mechanical stop would be an additional safety factor

You were asking about running this on a small compressor. That should be no problem for single hits, as the compressor tank will store enough air for a single hit, if not enough to run it continuously for 30 seconds. You might need large hoses to get adequate airflow.

The concept is one hammer which can be used as a conventional air hammer, a treadle hammer, or a programmable single hit hammer. If anybody is interested in pursuing this approach I could help you pick out a suitable timer and electric valve; with an industrial timer, the wiring is pretty trivial, the brains are in the timer.

Richard

Interesting approach Richard.. When I talked to Grant about this he also talked about using some sort of electronic feed back controlled valve, but it wasn't a function of time he wanted to control, but rather pressure/flow via a feedback circuit to precisely control the position of the air cylinder.. So your treadle position would respond proportional and in time with the air cylinder.. After thinking quite a bit about this I think I am at least initially use the air system used in my Bull hammer.. I am hoping to make some alterations to make the clamp and single blow functions easier to engage but Its proven, inxespensive and I already have a working system to emulate

[John Larson]

A striking hammer is a very useful tool and guys who have Grant's and Bob's KA hammers tend to like them as striking hammers. Nathan Robertson in northern Minnesota uses them to make his hand-held hammers, for example.

I say, "Go for it!"

It is very easy to turn a Kinyon style hammer into a single blow machine, as you may well know. The roller valve is foot or hand triggered instead of Kinyon style tup position triggered for repeatitive blows. Air flow can be hand adjusted to control power.

Grant's video about his steam hammer shows hand control for both down stroke and power.

Long strokes require long tup guides for die mating precision. Tup-in-a-tube guide systems such as Ralph Sproul and many other shop-mades use can provide that and it becomes easy to do so when the tup weight is high; it's the little machines where a long enough tup becomes problemmatic. With long guides the offset cylinder like a Bull/Phoenix enables a really long stroke, probably without the back of the guide tube slotted for the connection of the cylinder rod to the tup top via a through-tab. I very much advocate tup guides to be centered instead of offset like in the original Kinyon design. The problem IMHO with most tup-in-a-tube designs is not providing a long enough stroke; the guide tube is too close to the bottom die. A person should be able to use traditional hand held smithing punches and chisels (despite the danger relative to shorter tools) so that a long stroke is desired.

With a single blow hammer the critical air flow consideration is on the down strke. The lifting can be less snappy by far than what is needed for an automatically reciprocating machine. And no big problem is likely to arise from use of a cylinder without a top air cushion. Therefore a customized cap can be used on the cylinder to port in air faster than typical NFPA port sizes. The rod end cap can be factory made with the bushing and seals already perfected and replaceable.

You already have more than enough air compressor.

Norgren and others sell cylinders with "Hall effect" sensor capability for triggering magnetic switches. I've never gone down this path, but they seem ideal for electronic control.

Finally, what pneumatics do not do well is the movement that is a precise distance with a hard stop. Kiss blocks are needed. With hydraulics the electronic switches permit reasonably precise start & stop positions. Electric actuators give less power but probably more speed than hydraulics with the same precise electronic control characteristics that automation engineers favor. Jesse James knows a good bit about them based on Monster Garage episodes. Then there is the whole new technology of linear electric motors, which I think are the real future of power hammers.

[JNewman]

I think I have a simple solution for you Larry, no electrical actuators etc. needed. I modified my Kinyon style hammer a few years ago based on a post John Larson made on Keenjunk (thanks again John). I can set my hammer up for single blows but it does retract quite slowly, however i think I have a solution for that.

I am assuming you are familiar with the origional Kinyon valving. The modification I made is to add a second pilot valve in series with the pilot that is tripped by the ram, the second pilot is connected to the treadle so that when the treadle is up the pilot that normally trips the 3 way valve does not actuate it allowing the ram to go all the way up. A small leak is introduced to the exhaust valve so that when the treadle is released the air on the top of the cylinder is allowed to bleed out. If I place my ram pilot in its lowest position basically locking it open I can strike single blows hard or soft and when I remove my foot the hammer slowly retracts.

You however do not want the hammer to reciprocate so you can eliminate pilot valve #1 leaving you with a pilot valve that is actuated by your treadle. You do want the ram to retract quickly so rather than using a 2 position 3 way valve you could use a 2 position 4 way valve http://www.parker.com/literature/Literature%20Files/pneumatic/UPD_2009/0600P-11_D-Inline.pdf page 4 shows the valve style I am talking about. One exhaust port would hook up to your control valve(treadle) the same as a Kinyon hammer the other would have enough restriction on it to prevent the ram from slamming into the top of the cylinder (a cushion here would help as well). I would probably use a valve here but once it was adjusted it would probably not need adjustment often.

I just re read John Larsen's post above and his third paragraph is basically saying what I have just explained.

[monstermetal]

A striking hammer is a very useful tool and guys who have Grant's and Bob's KA hammers tend to like them as striking hammers. Nathan Robertson in northern Minnesota uses them to make his hand-held hammers, for example.

I say, "Go for it!"

It is very easy to turn a Kinyon style hammer into a single blow machine, as you may well know. The roller valve is foot or hand triggered instead of Kinyon style tup position triggered for repeatitive blows. Air flow can be hand adjusted to control power.

Grant's video about his steam hammer shows hand control for both down stroke and power.

Long strokes require long tup guides for die mating precision. Tup-in-a-tube guide systems such as Ralph Sproul and many other shop-mades use can provide that and it becomes easy to do so when the tup weight is high; it's the little machines where a long enough tup becomes problemmatic. With long guides the offset cylinder like a Bull/Phoenix enables a really long stroke, probably without the back of the guide tube slotted for the connection of the cylinder rod to the tup top via a through-tab. I very much advocate tup guides to be centered instead of offset like in the original Kinyon design. The problem IMHO with most tup-in-a-tube designs is not providing a long enough stroke; the guide tube is too close to the bottom die. A person should be able to use traditional hand held smithing punches and chisels (despite the danger relative to shorter tools) so that a long stroke is desired.

With a single blow hammer the critical air flow consideration is on the down strke. The lifting can be less snappy by far than what is needed for an automatically reciprocating machine. And no big problem is likely to arise from use of a cylinder without a top air cushion. Therefore a customized cap can be used on the cylinder to port in air faster than typical NFPA port sizes. The rod end cap can be factory made with the bushing and seals already perfected and replaceable.

You already have more than enough air compressor.

Norgren and others sell cylinders with "Hall effect" sensor capability for triggering magnetic switches. I've never gone down this path, but they seem ideal for electronic control.

Finally, what pneumatics do not do well is the movement that is a precise distance with a hard stop. Kiss blocks are needed. With hydraulics the electronic switches permit reasonably precise start & stop positions. Electric actuators give less power but probably more speed than hydraulics with the same precise electronic control characteristics that automation engineers favor. Jesse James knows a good bit about them based on Monster Garage episodes. Then there is the whole new technology of linear electric motors, which I think are the real future of power hammers.

Thanks John... That is alot of really helpful info. Keep posted for updates!

[monstermetal]

I think I have a simple solution for you Larry, no electrical actuators etc. needed. I modified my Kinyon style hammer a few years ago based on a post John Larson made on Keenjunk (thanks again John). I can set my hammer up for single blows but it does retract quite slowly, however i think I have a solution for that.

I am assuming you are familiar with the origional Kinyon valving. The modification I made is to add a second pilot valve in series with the pilot that is tripped by the ram, the second pilot is connected to the treadle so that when the treadle is up the pilot that normally trips the 3 way valve does not actuate it allowing the ram to go all the way up. A small leak is introduced to the exhaust valve so that when the treadle is released the air on the top of the cylinder is allowed to bleed out. If I place my ram pilot in its lowest position basically locking it open I can strike single blows hard or soft and when I remove my foot the hammer slowly retracts.

I just re read John Larsen's post above and his third paragraph is basically saying what I have just explained.

Yes John I know a little about the Kinyon system, I have the book and have run a handful of those hammers, and seen various improvements to the air system that help control considerably. What reading many of the helpful posts has driven home to me is I just need to get busy building it.. There are plenty of people with real world experience that are willing to help so moving forward and actually building something is what needs to happen..

Ive got a couple of projects I am behind on because of getting that 4N out and dragging my feet, soon as I get caught up Im going to move forward...

[Sam Salvati]

Single controllable blows, maybe a drop hammer?

[John Larson]

John Newman, you can speed up the tup-up-at-idle by cracking open the exhaust/throttle valve a bit more when the treadle is fully up. On my machines this speed up can be dramatic. Two steps basically. Set the exhaust/throttle valve. Set the cam controlling the shut off of air supply to the roller valve. Enjoy.

[JNewman]

John Newman, you can speed up the tup-up-at-idle by cracking open the exhaust/throttle valve a bit more when the treadle is fully up. On my machines this speed up can be dramatic. Two steps basically. Set the exhaust/throttle valve. Set the cam controlling the shut off of air supply to the roller valve. Enjoy.

Because I am not using an Iron Kiss custom made valve I found that cracking the valve to allow the head rise up reduced the control of the hammer. The adjustment of the roller valve also became very touchy. What I ended up doing is to drill a small hole in the hose nipple that threads into the valve. It works very well that way but maybe I should try drilling the hole out larger for a faster return when using the hammer for single blows.

I had forgotten what a difference your modification makes till I demoed at the OABA meeting on the weekend. The hammer I demoed on was very well built and had excellent control but I had to play with the treadle to get the stock and tooling under the hammer. Setting up higher tooling such as for punching is much easier and safer using a hammer with your modification.

[John Larson]

Thanks, J. Yes, straight ball valves are very touchy on a Kinyon.

[JNewman]

John, have you ever considered selling your exhaust control valves separately?

[Dillon Sculpture]

Not sure if this applies but, my Niles throttle valve has a v notch that lets a small amount of air at start up. I believe you may be able to file or grind a notch in a ball valve?

[monstermetal]

Just an update.. A local burn shop (burning Specialty's) has a frame they did for someone else.. The offered it to me for $1750... its about 3000 pounds of plate..... Seems like a good start to me... the anvil is 4.5" plate and the frame is two chunks of 1.5"....

[Sam Salvati]

Sounds like a GREAT DEAL! Pictures!!! Please.

[Senft]

On the subject of exhaust control valves for Kinyon style hammers- has anyone tried using a whistle valve (lever operated poppet) rather than a ball valve?

[youngdylan]

Hi Monster

I've just recently started a thread that may relate to this thread, basically using a pneumatic pulse valve (called something like that anyhow) that allows a Kinyon air hammer to give single controllable repeatable blows. Kinda like an adjustable treadle hammer ... may be of interest to you?

[eseemann]

I think I have a simple solution for you Larry, no electrical actuators etc. needed. I modified my Kinyon style hammer a few years ago based on a post John Larson made on Keenjunk (thanks again John). I can set my hammer up for single blows but it does retract quite slowly, however i think I have a solution for that.

I am assuming you are familiar with the origional Kinyon valving. The modification I made is to add a second pilot valve in series with the pilot that is tripped by the ram, the second pilot is connected to the treadle so that when the treadle is up the pilot that normally trips the 3 way valve does not actuate it allowing the ram to go all the way up. A small leak is introduced to the exhaust valve so that when the treadle is released the air on the top of the cylinder is allowed to bleed out. If I place my ram pilot in its lowest position basically locking it open I can strike single blows hard or soft and when I remove my foot the hammer slowly retracts.

You however do not want the hammer to reciprocate so you can eliminate pilot valve #1 leaving you with a pilot valve that is actuated by your treadle. You do want the ram to retract quickly so rather than using a 2 position 3 way valve you could use a 2 position 4 way valve http://www.parker.com/literature/Literature%20Files/pneumatic/UPD_2009/0600P-11_D-Inline.pdf page 4 shows the valve style I am talking about. One exhaust port would hook up to your control valve(treadle) the same as a Kinyon hammer the other would have enough restriction on it to prevent the ram from slamming into the top of the cylinder (a cushion here would help as well). I would probably use a valve here but once it was adjusted it would probably not need adjustment often.

I just re read John Larsen's post above and his third paragraph is basically saying what I have just explained.

Mr.  Newman, 

 

I have been trying to wrap my head around the air plumbing and I am a bit lost. If I wanted to have a non-reciprocating hammer that I can activate by (for example) press a foot switch, the ram comes down and then goes back up again. ------------------Note---------- I have no idea if you would let your foot off a switch to make the piston retract but that would be my guess.-------------End Note----------------

 

Any suggestions would be a big help 

 

thanks 

 

Ernest.