urnesBeast Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Everyone, My building inspector wants the safety and manufacturing specs on my 1901 champion coal forge and the Uri Hofi side draft forge that I installed.Side Draft I have modified the Uri Hofi side draft forge to be triple walled, double insulated going through the side wall touching a 2x4 studed frame. In use, I have a candle sitting on the outer shell on the inside of the building and the outside of the building. They have yet to even melt a little. The distance from the firepot to the nearest combustables is something he is interested in. The firepot is in the middle of the table 14" from the side near the wall. Documentation that this is an appropriate setback for this design would be helpful. Something from a similar forge would be great if scanned in. Any historians? I believe the building inspector wants something he can file away as documentation. He said if I found something on the internet that has these setbacks, that would be fine. If anyone has something that fits this description, that would be great. Point me to something, or if you feel qualified, you could send something like this or post it to another thread about the "Safety setbacks for a forge and side draft chimney." I am hoping I can get something from Uri himself, and will be pointing him to this post. -Thanks Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Flue pipe installation rulesInstallation clearances for wood stoves Here are some articles that may (or may not) prove appropriate or helpful. Good luck, inspections suck. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurlyGeorge Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Hi Doug. Just curious, where are you located and what type bldg do you live in? Is it an apartment bldg, or what? You don't have your location shown at the top right of your post. Thanks. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urnesBeast Posted November 30, 2009 Author Share Posted November 30, 2009 I am located in Boston. The forge is in a dedicated out building. The building is drywalled over wood studs. Concrete floor. Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug C Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 In 1901 there probably were no setbacks specified as zoning laws as we know them did not exist. I did a quick search on google books ( a great source for old books on the trades) and there was nothing obvious printed about installation practices except flue requirements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 14'' doesn't sound like it would pass with any inspecter. Put up a heat sheild with a 1" air space behind it. I have used duroc for this purpose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urnesBeast Posted December 1, 2009 Author Share Posted December 1, 2009 Could you all do me a favor and if you have constructed a side draft like this, please give dimensions of: Distance to wall from firepot Wall material Fire shield in place? Description of horizontal piece (single wall, double wall) Stack height. This kind of documentation of existing builds will be helpful. Thank you, Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe-Wood Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 I'm thinking whatever you come up with, its going to be a hybrid of an open pit BBQ, double wall chimney and fireplace heat shield all combined to satisfy the inspector. I'm assuming he wants to be sure that if you leave a potential for the forge to re-ignite un-tended, it won't burn the building. Kinda like a 2 hour fire rating etc. Find out what your specific building codes require for open pit BBQ, double wall chimney and fireplace heat shield, your inspector will know this. Have him show you the code. Sometimes there is room for interpretation. Don't challenge them. THAT never works!!! Be willing to make simple adjustments (improvements) to what you have installed. Sometimes thats all they want... to feel powerful and that there is a reason they exist. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divermike Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 I know a lot of you guys don't like inspectors, and clearly have shown it in your comments, however, I am one. I can tell you that many of us do not feel the need to be over officious, however we do take our responsibilities seriously. The concern is for more than the building the forge is in, if somehow the fire escapes and can impact other buildings, then we have a much bigger problem. Ask the inspector if the rules for unlisted solid fuel applainces can be brought into play with your forge. As stated by someone else, durarock. with a 1" gap is commonly accepted as protection for combustibles. I would be glad to speak with your inspector on your behalf if you think it would be helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 I've never had a problem with an inspector, just the process, and usually more from a scheduling standpoint than anything else. For most inspections I have been through the guidelines have been very clearly spelled out so if the job was done properly, to the guidelines or code, then the inspection was a formality. Divermike is right, these are people trying to help make sure the city stays safe, and deserve to be treated decently. Generally these people don't want you to have a hard time, they like seeing projects completed and business done. Inspectors are really part of the "Good Guys" even though every time the come around people seem to be very defensive. Having some bottled water, iced tea, and/or fresh coffee for the inspector, and just being polite can also help smooth the process a little. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe-Wood Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Opps- Sorry divermike, I didn't mean to offend anyone. I have been involved in many hundreds of successful inspections for residential and commercial projects. As with many things one bad apple spoils the bunch. Most of my inspectors have been very helpful and professional, however I have had a couple that wrote down items in addition to what was spec'd just to satisfy there own agenda. Later, another inspector on the same project asked why that was done like that. I guess my reaction came from the way the inspector put the burden on the home owner to come up with spec's clearly not available rather than helping to figure out what would work safely with the inspectors expertise in todays requirements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divermike Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Fe Wood, no worries mate, sometimes my compatriots make me want to pull my hair out, you know how it is, when someone starts slammin your profession! Now back to our previously programed discussion!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWHII Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Just remember that arguing with a inspector is like wrestling with a pig in the mud. Sooner or later you will figure out he likes it. HH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urnesBeast Posted December 1, 2009 Author Share Posted December 1, 2009 Status update: I just filed for the building permit. It looked good, the guy was about to issue it (he said), he went into a side room to call the fire safety officer. A manager came back about ten minutes later and said it was denied because it was not "normal and customary" He asked if I wish to appeal, I said yes. He started paperwork for that, and it should be ready in a week. The appeal is to the State Board of Mass. -Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNewman Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 I wonder if this is the sort of thing that Abana could possibly get involved in as far as getting some standards approved? One be one we are just that weird guy that thinks he's a blacksmith. The easiest thing to do as an inspector is just to say no. As a large group we can maybe get some sort of standard approved so that we can have somewhere to steer the inspectors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Contact .new england blacksmiths and see if they can be of assistance. Owen Bostrom President 99 Chase Hill Rd. Ashaway, RI 02804 obostrom@cox.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rthibeau Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 It's "normal and customary" for the use it is being built for....a blacksmith setup. The worry about fire hazards can be diminished greatly by adding the durorock to the wall around the flue going to the outside. My side draft forge has a flue going straight up and through the roof. The bottom of the stack is open and at the edge of the firepot. The forge table is a few inches off the wall, the flue sits in a 16" square of chimney block, so the center of the firepot is over 24" from the durorock. There is little heat that goes up the flue, just the smoke. On the wall are enough durorock panels to extent 36" above the level of and to the sides of the firepot as protection against sparks flying. The floor is concrete so that's ok. Having a full slack tub near the forge and a couple fire extinguishers elsewhere also are safety precautions. Lots of things get burned in a blacksmith shop, but you hardly ever hear of the building itself burning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe-Wood Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Was it denied because of the use of coal or just because he didn't want to think about it and gave you the basic blow off? Is this a hobby forge in a home shop? You might try talking to your local fire chief, see what he suggests as a strategy. Remember, these services are here for us, not the other way around. Pleasant persistence pays! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragons lair Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Inspector should be providing specs not asking for them. Have had a septic system laid out and permitted that was 15ft too close to a hand dug well. Smoking banned in a welding shop(fire hazzard) Another shop had a warehouse fire. After pumping water in for 8 hours(6 inchs deep) He found a butt "at the base of the fire" Not dissing anyone here. Just saying there are the Good the Bad And the Ugly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hofi Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 SORRY FOR THE DELAY WAS VERY BUSY ON SOME PROJECTS I am not in the USA and I do not know the local rules !! at my smithy and school the wales are made from concrete bricks so fire is not a problem but when I built the ozark school were the walls were made of wood I fabricated another sleeve on the tunnel and in between I GAVE A 1'' layer of kaowool (ceramic blanket ) to isolate the wall from the tunnel heat.the wall was covered with 1/2 a mm sheet metal to prevent the sparks to catch fire with the wooden wall. The distance between the wall and the center of the forge fire is 20-24'' Hofi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urnesBeast Posted December 2, 2009 Author Share Posted December 2, 2009 Hofi, Thank you! That is exactly what I did, only I have two metal sleeves inside the tunnel, and two different layers of kaowool. I will be adding the sheetmetal or concrete board to put against the wall. Thank you, doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urnesBeast Posted December 2, 2009 Author Share Posted December 2, 2009 I think the denial came from two reasons: "Not my department" department. If he denies it, there are almost no problems for him. If he approves it and something goes wrong, there might be. It is the path of least resistance. I had an unfortunate smithy fire in the spring. The new smithy is a completely different set-up. (all wood -even floor- vs concrete pad and sheet rock) It was all fine until an unhappy neighbor called in. Making peace with them did not last past her son's arrival for Thanksgiving. doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe-Wood Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Oh, those neighbors.... I wound up with a ton of coke and a forge because a friends neighbors complained. Having had a previous fire, I'm sure every agency is looking for a way out. -It may be time to get all your Ducks in a row and build some alliances. -Be sure your zoning will accommodate your "hobby" smithy. -Consider getting your local Fire chief to help you design the flue system -Have you checked specifically on the permit requirements for a forge? You might be able to classify it as a BBQ with some simple changes. -Consider making the forge portable and temporary. Like exhausting out a window.... Permanent fixtures fall under a different set of rules. One of the toughest parts about the building department is that they don't like sharing info in a brain storming sort of way. They want you to say what you want to do and then they will tell you whether it will work or not. If it falls outside of "normal" they usually don't like to volunteer info to help you make it work. Good Luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Trez Cole Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 urnesbeast the setbacks for a wood stove will excide any of your needs. I like what fe-wood said build allinces it helps and invite the neighbor over for a demo and give them a hook or two you want to keep them on yourside. Check your noise ordiances they sell decibal meters at raido shack if you cant get the neighbors on your side that will be the next complant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urnesBeast Posted December 2, 2009 Author Share Posted December 2, 2009 Francis, How do we convince a building inspector that the setbacks for a woodstove are appropriate? I had thought I had made peace with the neighbor. While not 100% who stirred this up, I think I know. Either way, the avalanche has started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote. This is not a noise issue item, this is a chimney building permit issue. Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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