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I Forge Iron

Inspector wants safety setbacks


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Everyone,

My building inspector wants the safety and manufacturing specs on my 1901 champion coal forge and the Uri Hofi side draft forge that I installed.

Side Draft

I have modified the Uri Hofi side draft forge to be triple walled, double insulated going through the side wall touching a 2x4 studed frame. In use, I have a candle sitting on the outer shell on the inside of the building and the outside of the building. They have yet to even melt a little.

The distance from the firepot to the nearest combustables is something he is interested in. The firepot is in the middle of the table 14" from the side near the wall. Documentation that this is an appropriate setback for this design would be helpful. Something from a similar forge would be great if scanned in. Any historians?

I believe the building inspector wants something he can file away as documentation. He said if I found something on the internet that has these setbacks, that would be fine.

If anyone has something that fits this description, that would be great. Point me to something, or if you feel qualified, you could send something like this or post it to another thread about the "Safety setbacks for a forge and side draft chimney."

I am hoping I can get something from Uri himself, and will be pointing him to this post.

-Thanks
Doug

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In 1901 there probably were no setbacks specified as zoning laws as we know them did not exist. I did a quick search on google books ( a great source for old books on the trades) and there was nothing obvious printed about installation practices except flue requirements.

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000.jpg
Could you all do me a favor and if you have constructed a side draft like this, please give dimensions of:

Distance to wall from firepot
Wall material
Fire shield in place?

Description of horizontal piece (single wall, double wall)
Stack height.

This kind of documentation of existing builds will be helpful.

Thank you,
Doug
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I'm thinking whatever you come up with, its going to be a hybrid of an open pit BBQ, double wall chimney and fireplace heat shield all combined to satisfy the inspector. I'm assuming he wants to be sure that if you leave a potential for the forge to re-ignite un-tended, it won't burn the building. Kinda like a 2 hour fire rating etc.

Find out what your specific building codes require for open pit BBQ, double wall chimney and fireplace heat shield, your inspector will know this. Have him show you the code. Sometimes there is room for interpretation. Don't challenge them. THAT never works!!!

Be willing to make simple adjustments (improvements) to what you have installed. Sometimes thats all they want... to feel powerful and that there is a reason they exist.

Good luck!

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I know a lot of you guys don't like inspectors, and clearly have shown it in your comments, however, I am one. I can tell you that many of us do not feel the need to be over officious, however we do take our responsibilities seriously. The concern is for more than the building the forge is in, if somehow the fire escapes and can impact other buildings, then we have a much bigger problem. Ask the inspector if the rules for unlisted solid fuel applainces can be brought into play with your forge. As stated by someone else, durarock. with a 1" gap is commonly accepted as protection for combustibles. I would be glad to speak with your inspector on your behalf if you think it would be helpful.

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I've never had a problem with an inspector, just the process, and usually more from a scheduling standpoint than anything else. For most inspections I have been through the guidelines have been very clearly spelled out so if the job was done properly, to the guidelines or code, then the inspection was a formality.

Divermike is right, these are people trying to help make sure the city stays safe, and deserve to be treated decently. Generally these people don't want you to have a hard time, they like seeing projects completed and business done. Inspectors are really part of the "Good Guys" even though every time the come around people seem to be very defensive.

Having some bottled water, iced tea, and/or fresh coffee for the inspector, and just being polite can also help smooth the process a little.

Phil

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Opps-
Sorry divermike, I didn't mean to offend anyone.
I have been involved in many hundreds of successful inspections for residential and commercial projects. As with many things one bad apple spoils the bunch. Most of my inspectors have been very helpful and professional, however I have had a couple that wrote down items in addition to what was spec'd just to satisfy there own agenda. Later, another inspector on the same project asked why that was done like that.

I guess my reaction came from the way the inspector put the burden on the home owner to come up with spec's clearly not available rather than helping to figure out what would work safely with the inspectors expertise in todays requirements.

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Status update:

I just filed for the building permit. It looked good, the guy was about to issue it (he said), he went into a side room to call the fire safety officer. A manager came back about ten minutes later and said it was denied because it was not "normal and customary"

He asked if I wish to appeal, I said yes.

He started paperwork for that, and it should be ready in a week. The appeal is to the State Board of Mass.

-Doug

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I wonder if this is the sort of thing that Abana could possibly get involved in as far as getting some standards approved? One be one we are just that weird guy that thinks he's a blacksmith. The easiest thing to do as an inspector is just to say no. As a large group we can maybe get some sort of standard approved so that we can have somewhere to steer the inspectors.

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It's "normal and customary" for the use it is being built for....a blacksmith setup. The worry about fire hazards can be diminished greatly by adding the durorock to the wall around the flue going to the outside. My side draft forge has a flue going straight up and through the roof. The bottom of the stack is open and at the edge of the firepot. The forge table is a few inches off the wall, the flue sits in a 16" square of chimney block, so the center of the firepot is over 24" from the durorock. There is little heat that goes up the flue, just the smoke. On the wall are enough durorock panels to extent 36" above the level of and to the sides of the firepot as protection against sparks flying. The floor is concrete so that's ok. Having a full slack tub near the forge and a couple fire extinguishers elsewhere also are safety precautions. Lots of things get burned in a blacksmith shop, but you hardly ever hear of the building itself burning.

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Was it denied because of the use of coal or just because he didn't want to think about it and gave you the basic blow off? Is this a hobby forge in a home shop? You might try talking to your local fire chief, see what he suggests as a strategy.

Remember, these services are here for us, not the other way around. Pleasant persistence pays!

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Inspector should be providing specs not asking for them. Have had a septic system laid out and permitted that was 15ft too close to a hand dug well. Smoking banned in a welding shop(fire hazzard) Another shop had a warehouse fire. After pumping water in for 8 hours(6 inchs deep) He found a butt "at the base of the fire" Not dissing anyone here. Just saying there are the Good the Bad And the Ugly

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SORRY FOR THE DELAY WAS VERY BUSY ON SOME PROJECTS
I am not in the USA and I do not know the local rules !!
at my smithy and school the wales are made from concrete bricks so fire is not a problem
but when I built the ozark school were the walls were made of wood I fabricated another sleeve on the tunnel and in between I GAVE A 1'' layer of kaowool (ceramic blanket ) to isolate the wall from the tunnel heat.the wall was covered with 1/2 a mm sheet metal to prevent the sparks to catch fire with the wooden wall.
The distance between the wall and the center of the forge fire is 20-24''
Hofi

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I think the denial came from two reasons:

"Not my department" department. If he denies it, there are almost no problems for him. If he approves it and something goes wrong, there might be. It is the path of least resistance.

I had an unfortunate smithy fire in the spring. The new smithy is a completely different set-up. (all wood -even floor- vs concrete pad and sheet rock) It was all fine until an unhappy neighbor called in. Making peace with them did not last past her son's arrival for Thanksgiving.

doug

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Oh, those neighbors....
I wound up with a ton of coke and a forge because a friends neighbors complained.

Having had a previous fire, I'm sure every agency is looking for a way out.

-It may be time to get all your Ducks in a row and build some alliances.

-Be sure your zoning will accommodate your "hobby" smithy.

-Consider getting your local Fire chief to help you design the flue system

-Have you checked specifically on the permit requirements for a forge? You might be able to classify it as a BBQ with some simple changes.

-Consider making the forge portable and temporary. Like exhausting out a window.... Permanent fixtures fall under a different set of rules.

One of the toughest parts about the building department is that they don't like sharing info in a brain storming sort of way. They want you to say what you want to do and then they will tell you whether it will work or not. If it falls outside of "normal" they usually don't like to volunteer info to help you make it work.

Good Luck!

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urnesbeast the setbacks for a wood stove will excide any of your needs. I like what fe-wood said build allinces it helps and invite the neighbor over for a demo and give them a hook or two you want to keep them on yourside. Check your noise ordiances they sell decibal meters at raido shack if you cant get the neighbors on your side that will be the next complant.

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Francis,

How do we convince a building inspector that the setbacks for a woodstove are appropriate?

I had thought I had made peace with the neighbor. While not 100% who stirred this up, I think I know. Either way, the avalanche has started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote.

This is not a noise issue item, this is a chimney building permit issue.

Doug

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