Danz409 Posted August 29, 2009 Share Posted August 29, 2009 sounds like a weard questoin but not realy shure of any other way of describeing. in the image example A is easly accomplished by streatching it out a basic process that can be easly accomplished. but im still new at this and was wondering if the oppasite of that can be done. takeing a peace of stock and makeing it thicker/chunkyer to use or work with it. (example would be B on the image). im unaware of any process that could accomplish this with little tools. only idea i can thank of is flateinig out even more and doing a folding/welding Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBrann Posted August 29, 2009 Share Posted August 29, 2009 Yes, its is called upsetting. You strike the end of the small area you would like to be bigger with a small to medium hammer at high heat... yellow to hotter but not "wet" .... you must be careful to keep the center in axis with the rest of the piece, otherwise it will fold over, an you'll have a cold shut. It is one of the basic operations that need to be practiced a lot before it goes well for you. good luck cliff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haasum Posted August 29, 2009 Share Posted August 29, 2009 You could fold it, but I think what you're describing is referred to as "Upsetting." Where you fatten the end of the stock. Not sure how much you want to upset it or how well it works beyond just the end of the stock though. I don't have any tools to try it. "Upset: The process of driving metal back onto itself to create a bulge or increase the mass. When upsetting metal for the latch cusps it becomes thicker and wider while becoming shorter from the hammer blows." from: Blacksmithing -- Tools of the Trade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danz409 Posted August 29, 2009 Author Share Posted August 29, 2009 wow thanks! that does seem like a basic step. just wasnt shure how the process happend but got a good idea now. ill have to give this a try next time i fire up the forge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Bly Posted August 29, 2009 Share Posted August 29, 2009 (edited) Yes, the process is definitely called upsetting. I have done this just by taking the piece of metal I wanted larger by heating and then forcing the metal upon itself in the direction you want the bulge to occur. This can be easily seen happening if you take a 1/4" to 1/2" round or square stock 2 or 3 feet long (so that it is easier to practice with), heat it up in the middle, then take it to your anvil, place one end on the anvil and tap the other end with your hammer. You should be able to notice an immediate and distinct difference in the diameter of the middle of your stock, although it may be a small difference. The more you heat and hit, the bigger it gets. You will have to heat the stock further and further along the length of your stock as you go to make the metal that was in the one spot move to the other that you are trying to upset (or enlarge). Edited August 29, 2009 by Jeff Bly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
double_edge2 Posted August 29, 2009 Share Posted August 29, 2009 i know it would be upsetting if it were happening to me......lol........you might try the fold and weld then upset as well later on, all good things to have a go at, and get good at.:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 29, 2009 Share Posted August 29, 2009 There's a good reason it's called upsetting as you'll find out when you give it a try. Oh okay, I don't KNOW if that's how it got it's name but it sure fits. Keeping the stock straight is the biggest problem though with practice you'll develop the skill to drive directly along the axis. Till then do NOT continue upsetting blows after it starts to bend, straighten it and reheat it. When you're straightening it do so with off face blows so you're bending it. If you try straightening on the face you'll end up drawing the upset back out in a three steps forward, two steps back process. It's a basic blacksmithing technique and probably one of if not THE most difficult to do well. I know everybody I've tought has whined and complained the whole time they had to do my upsetting project. The project? Upset the end of a length of 1/2" bar to 3/4". Seems easy enough doesn't it? Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted August 29, 2009 Share Posted August 29, 2009 I have a steel disc 2.5 inches thick x14 inches diameter. It sits on the shop floor. when I want to upset the end of a bar, I bounce it of the disk. Hot of course. Work can also be clamped in a vise and pounded on. For one job I even made a press to bulge the center of some bars. After the work was clamped in the press, I heated it with a torch as I tightened the screw. It was the least upsetting of any upsetting I've ever done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Svarttrost Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 This is the most upsetting thread I've seen here thus far :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Browne Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 I find upsetting good where I only need a relatively small increase in section, otherwise its too upsetting to even try. After saying that there are some really upsetting people who can double the section of a piece by upsetting it, there is an old thread on the forum about it. If I have to increase the section dramatically I weld a piece onto the job where the increase is needed and continue from there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecelticforge Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 I used to give my apprentices a six inch long section of half inch stock and have them make a cube, then a ball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danz409 Posted August 30, 2009 Author Share Posted August 30, 2009 well, i tryed this first thing today and i can say... oh .... why... sounds easy... the metal just gives me the finger and bends every way possable and refuses to fatten up... i clearly see why its called upsetting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlotte Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 The smaller the section and the longer the heat the harder it is to do. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danz409 Posted August 30, 2009 Author Share Posted August 30, 2009 realy? i guss that would explane a good amount of it... i tryed 1/2 inch round stock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Browne Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Get it good and hot, nearly welding temperature, where you need to increase the section. Use a little water to cool the bits you don't want to change then have a go. If you leave a long section hot it can and will move everywhere so limit the hot section. Make sense?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danz409 Posted August 31, 2009 Author Share Posted August 31, 2009 wouldnt the water, evne tho be put on 1 secon cool the whole peace down tho? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 If applied in a small stream, say through a 3/16 or 1/4 inch diameter hole in a pop bottle cap (relative to the size of the stock) and pointing the water stream away from the hot metal section you want to remain hot, you can isolate the heat zone. You can drill a slot rather than a round hole in the bottle cap for a ribbon of water, or modify the water outlet(s) in other ways to fit your needs. The same can be done with a water hose for larger stock or when more water is needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnW Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Yes definitely upsetting steel, can be pretty uspsetting to the would be blacksmith. Upsetting doesn't usually work straight away. After upsetting a little, you usually have to take another heat to hammer the the steel back straight, which kind of tapers the steel back to almost where it was in the first place. Get steel with a bigger dimension. The more I see experts, the more I see they have stock just about the size they need to start with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blakksmyth Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 You can reduce bending of the stock by doing a couple of things. Firstly rotate the stock 90 degrees after every blow, if hand upsetting, and secondly hammer a small chamfer on the edge. For instance, if you are upsetting 3/4" square stock put a 1/4" chamfer around the edge before upsetting. It doesn't stop the bending completely, but it reduces it a lot. Good Luck. Cheers, Rob K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Thompson Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 You should upset at bright yellow heat and use the tail (red) end of the heat to straighten before you take another. Putting a short taper on the end of a bar lets you drive the centre into the stock and speeds up the initial part of the work. Some swage blocks have depressions which produce the same effect. Upsetting with the hot end upwards will produce a flatter 'Tee'-shaped deformation, whereas resing the hot end on an anvil and hitting the top tends to produce a bulgier effect. Upsetting is a great demonstration of how hot metal moves more than cold; localising the heat is half the battle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzonoqua Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 I have a small 25 kilo anvil that sits on the floor that I use as an upsetting block, heat isolation is crucial, I have a squirty bottle of water for this with one of those "sport nozzles". Putting a short chamfer on the end of the stock you are upsetting can help too. arftist, I do like this idea of using a press, what sort of press? Would be interested to hear about that further, I don't have one, but it's another toy, I mean tool that might make a nice addition... I will agree, upsetting is upsetting, I find it can sometimes be a bit like a mixi rabbit, wobbling this way and that! But it does look so good when accomplished!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myloh67 Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Try next time with larger stock say inch round and the same length of heat, its an easier operation due to the mass involved and the bar will not bend about on you so much. Apply the heat at one end of the bar whilst holding the bar with tongs and place in the hearth vertically. You will figure the process more relaxedley (not sure if thats a word) and in turn revert back to the more tricky sized sections. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Trying to cool parts with water is a frustrating experience. By the time you get done, the part you want hot has cooled too. Second best thing I ever found was a compressed air spray nozzle. Really works fast! By far the best way to get a short local heat is with an induction forge! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danz409 Posted August 31, 2009 Author Share Posted August 31, 2009 nakedanvil thats cheating! expensive tools are cheat! XD anyway. i tryed another peace today. i sucsessfuly "upseted" it a bit messy and not much mass added but i can say its accomplished. ill work on it more once i find a cheap sorce of fuel. untell then im not forking anymore cash for charcoal. just getting too expensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 Yes, but I told you a good alternate, didn't I? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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