Avadon Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Does anyone know what rod i'm looking at for laying down a hard faced bed with TIG welding. Also are there any good tutorials for doing this on mild steel? Any idea to what rockwell hardness this makes the surface? Does it resist hammer blows/smiles quite well? :confused: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Falcon 72 Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Check Miller - Welding Equipment - MIG/TIG/Stick Welders & Plasma Cutting Tons of info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragons lair Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 In a pinch knock the flux off a stick rod wire brush or sand it a little and have at it. As to hardness it varies with the rod. Also there is underlay rod and surface rod. Some is abrasion resistant some is impact resisant. Ken PS like cast tig rod hard face tig rod is gonna cost ya big time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 I keep H-13, A-2, D-2 and O-1 tool steel tig rod on hand for die repair. Best luck I have is with a dull red pre-heat on the part. Just Google "tool steel tig rod". For what you want to do tool steel will be much better than hard facing rod. Cost about the same too........expensive! Knocking the flux from stick rod: Many (most?) specialty stick rods have major parts of the alloying elements in the flux. It all alloys together in the puddle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnptc Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 use any type of drill rod you like....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy k Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 I do not recall the rod name but it's basically an air hard tig rod - used for repairing tool and die work (worn die edges and defects and such). Weld and let cool and it's hard - to what RC I do not know. I hope that will get you in the right direction. - JK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted July 3, 2009 Author Share Posted July 3, 2009 I'll try to find H-13, A-2, D-2 and O-1 tool steel tig rod or some drill rod now that I know what i'm looking at. Thanks. You all are right, it aint cheap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted July 3, 2009 Author Share Posted July 3, 2009 Anyone got any reccomendations on this page as to what you think would be a generally good hard facing rod to tig weld onto the surface of mild steel for an anvil surface?https://weldingsupply.securesites.com/cgi-bin/einstein.pl?Next::1:UNDEF::::PE08 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 Use it as it is. You may find you want to change it, or it is already hard enough. After you have used it for quite a while, and are happy with the shape, hardface it then, if you need to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeremyP Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 How big is your anvil? why not simply stick weld the hardface onto your anvil? I think you might have better luck that way whereas tig welding a hard material to mild steel might result in spalling (the hard surface peeling or chipping off) while a hardsurface stick electrode I think will dilute into the mild steel to larger degree and prevent spalling. You can produce a 60-65 RC with hardfacing rod which is actually harder than most anvil faces (50-55RC) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drifter Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 I'm with Freelance on that question . Not to mention it is a lot faster thenTIG for a wide application as well as deeper. For the finer fill in small spots the TIG would shine though. Drifter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted July 6, 2009 Author Share Posted July 6, 2009 How big is your anvil? why not simply stick weld the hardface onto your anvil? I think you might have better luck that way whereas tig welding a hard material to mild steel might result in spalling (the hard surface peeling or chipping off) while a hardsurface stick electrode I think will dilute into the mild steel to larger degree and prevent spalling. You can produce a 60-65 RC with hardfacing rod which is actually harder than most anvil faces (50-55RC) I don't really like stick welding. It's just so messy and never seems to produce as nice of results on precision stuff. I've actually been looking at ER 80SD2. I don't know if this is considered a "hard facing rod" but someone at airgas told me that it will produce a high strength weld :confused: Anyone used ER 80SD2 for hardfacing? It's readily available to me so it would be easy to get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted July 6, 2009 Author Share Posted July 6, 2009 Now i'm being told 4130 is also really tough stuff.. tougher then 80SD2 but the only place I could find 4130 is through aircraft spruce at 65$ a pound. ouch! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted July 6, 2009 Author Share Posted July 6, 2009 Okay Just figured it out.. S-7 and M-2 these are the serious drill rods. Rockwell hardness up to 60+ air/oil/salt hardening methods Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 80SD2 is just a medium strength low-allow. M-2 YOU DO NOT WANT. Way too brittle. S-7 would probably do fine. I'd just draw it back after welding and see how it seems. Check with a file. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aikenvb Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 (edited) I have rebuilt several anvils. They all needed extensive welding as they were sway-backed. I used 90 SB2 base rod for the filler. This rod seemed to do well at adhearing to the contaminated surfaces of the table & shelf. I used a carbide end mill in a (Bridgeport type verticle) mill and used a steady supply of air to cool the end mill and chase chips. Now that you have a nice clean surface to weld too, use a hard rod for a good hard surface, maybe two layers if necessary. I think it best to have the top two surfaces Blanchard Ground. Then grind the sides with a flap disk. To do minor repairs to the horn, using the 90 rod and hand grind with the flap disk. Be advised that I didn't find it worth major fixing anvils for resale. Filling chips, cracks or the sway back (1/4 inch) is time consuming and has a lot of splatter into the tig cup/tip. Up the argon flow a bit and use a large cup with 3/32 tungsten. After continuious welding for about 45 minuites the anvil is so hot you'll need heat protection. I just quit for the day and let it set to cool off. Take your time and make the grinding arraingments in advance. The anvils I repaired were between 95lbs and 172lbs After you get the milled surface done flip the anvil over on the table and flatten the base feet of the anvil. Then do the hard surface welding before taking it to the blanchard grinder. Lots of welding, Lots of milling time and an expense that I would only do for my personal use. I have heard that there are shops that can forge weld a new table surface to your old anvil, you might look for that. I have used a lot of 80SD2 tig rod. I repair chormemoly sprint car chassis and that is the rod recomended for chromemoly tubing. Check with the Tig welding equiptment MFGRS (not your local weld supply shop) as they have tech people you can talk with about your welding methods and the proper rod to use, they all have 800 numbers. Then practice. Edited July 7, 2009 by Aikenvb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted July 7, 2009 Author Share Posted July 7, 2009 Roger on the M-2 as being too brittle. What is the 90SB2 Aikenvb, i've never heard of this. Where can I find it? Harris welding seemed to suggest that 80SD2 and 1034 will not work for hardfacing. So I gave up on both of those. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aikenvb Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 Avadon: Sorry about that, try ER90SB3, I got it at Air Gas in Harrisburg PA. CORRECTION!!!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 While all these things are better than mild steel, you're gonna spend a lot of time and money with whatever you use. ER90SB3 is rated at 90,000 psi tensile, that's less than 20Rc! 45Rc = about 180,000 psi tensile. Most factory anvils are over 50Rc and some old ones more than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted July 8, 2009 Author Share Posted July 8, 2009 While all these things are better than mild steel, you're gonna spend a lot of time and money with whatever you use. ER90SB3 is rated at 90,000 psi tensile, that's less than 20Rc! 45Rc = about 180,000 psi tensile. Most factory anvils are over 50Rc and some old ones more than that. Yah I think i'm gonna order the S7 Today. Got a call from Airgas about the UTP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 The stuff with carbide is not what you want anyway. The carbide is not a homogeneous mix it's little bitts of carbide in a soft matrix. After awhile the soft material will beat down leaving the carbide standing proud, sorta like a grit-edge file. You don't think you'll use 10 pounds? At least 6 or 7. And you're doing this, why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted July 12, 2009 Author Share Posted July 12, 2009 (edited) 10#'s was $500!!! No way am I spending that. Am too cheap lol The anvil i'm making is a brazeal style anvil.. (basically a big chunk of upright steel ~ 4" x 13" x16") I ordered 12 rods @ about $6 a rod and got free shipping on it through MSC and it came the next day. Can't beat that! The stuff is "S-7 Hi-Shock Air Hardening Drill Rod - 36 In. Diameter: 3/32 Overall Length: 36" MSC Item #06095061 Had a chance to Tig Weld with this Rod today on a piece of scrap. HOLY FRIHOLIES!!! THIS STUFF IS STRONG!! Probably the strongest face i've ever seen. Right around 56-58Rockwell Hardness. I couldn't put a dent in it with any hammer, It dulled my chisels and even flattened one of my transfer punches. Not a dent in this stuff. It is insanely hard! Amazing stuff! I think 12 rods will probably do the whole 4x13" face. Probably have an 1/8'th or so surface after grinding. This should be a pretty amazing surface to work on considering whats under the hard surface is just a giant block of steel. Anyone looking to hard surface might want to try out this S-7 Rod. Pretty impressive stuff! If I have any left over I might hardface one of my smaller beat up H.F. jewelers anvils. Ps.. thanks for the point in the right direction everyone. Edited July 12, 2009 by Avadon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted July 13, 2009 Author Share Posted July 13, 2009 These instructions say preheat thoroughly to 1200-1300dgs then raise to hardening temperature of 1725dgs F. Hold for one hour and then quench in still air. Upon reaching 150dgsF should be tempered without delay. But the thing is I don't have a tempering oven and don't intend to send it off for tempering. Should I just pre-heat the hell out of it, tig weld it up, keep it as hot as I can for an hour with a rosebud torch and let it cool in air? Or do I need to do some tempering heat after? What is the easiest way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crij Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 (edited) Avadon, You could probably use an old Blacksmith technique, pre-heat to dark red (just below where it will start to glow[~1200 degrees F]), then heat the metal to orange/lemon yellow [~1725/~1825 degrees F] with a rosebud or coal fire and bury it in dry sand or vermiculite for 1-1.5 hours. As you will loose some heat to the sand particles, I would suggest the extra time for grain growth. Dry sand or Vermiculite will act as a insulation barrier and keep the metal near the temp ****Sand must be completely dry****. You could also use Kaol wool blankets, but sand is easier to get. I would suggest using a metal container big enough to give you 1 foot of sand on all sides of the part. For the 150 degrees you will need to either guestimate, use a temp probe or non contact thermometer. Probably a good guestimate for 150 is shortly after a drop of water no longer boils when dropped onto the steel. When you raise the temp to lemon yellow, be careful, the next step is white hot where the part will turn into a sparkler, as you start to burn off metal. Bright lemon yellow as blacksmiths will know is forge welding temp. One thing you might want to do, is to bring it up to yellow and hammer on the piece to smooth the welds. For color to temp chart, see: steel identification, color, steel, identify, temperature Take care, Rich C. Edited August 6, 2009 by crij added info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted August 11, 2009 Author Share Posted August 11, 2009 Avadon, You could probably use an old Blacksmith technique, pre-heat to dark red (just below where it will start to glow[~1200 degrees F]), then heat the metal to orange/lemon yellow [~1725/~1825 degrees F] with a rosebud or coal fire and bury it in dry sand or vermiculite for 1-1.5 hours. As you will loose some heat to the sand particles, I would suggest the extra time for grain growth. Dry sand or Vermiculite will act as a insulation barrier and keep the metal near the temp ****Sand must be completely dry****. You could also use Kaol wool blankets, but sand is easier to get. I would suggest using a metal container big enough to give you 1 foot of sand on all sides of the part. For the 150 degrees you will need to either guestimate, use a temp probe or non contact thermometer. Probably a good guestimate for 150 is shortly after a drop of water no longer boils when dropped onto the steel. When you raise the temp to lemon yellow, be careful, the next step is white hot where the part will turn into a sparkler, as you start to burn off metal. Bright lemon yellow as blacksmiths will know is forge welding temp. One thing you might want to do, is to bring it up to yellow and hammer on the piece to smooth the welds. For color to temp chart, see: steel identification, color, steel, identify, temperature Take care, Rich C. Excellent advice Rich. Yes I would definitely use that technique on anything manageable. Unfortunately I was hardfacing a 240lb piece of 4" thick plate. So it wasn't really the kind of thing I could easily heat up to those kinds of temperatures without a monster forge, nor move around without a chain hoist. Now that Iforge is backup i'll have some pics soon under the anvil section. Thanks for the help, and yes to answer your p.m message I did use S-7 rod from MSC. It's amazing stuff. You weld that stuff onto some mild steel and I don't think a missile could put a dent in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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