Jaret Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 Ok, I bought a couple. spent just over $200 for both. One is an Ajax 125 pounder, the other is a Colombian (thanks Finnr) that is 100 pounds. Sometimes I spent money carelessly. The Ajax is in rough shape, and I want to refinish it. If I screw it up, no biggie, still a useful garden ornament if anything. The question is, if I were to flatten the face and clean up the sides by sacrificing some meat of the anvil, would it ruin the anvil? I will only be using these anvils to learn from. Things like forge welding and folding metal, not do much design yet. What do you think? Cheers, J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 From what I see the #2 pic is fine to use as is, its in much better shape than my first anvil (I still have it). The last pic may be fine, Use it a few hours and see, does it leave marks in the steel you are working? ifnot why mess with it ? Having said that if you are wanting it just to look a little better, a 120 grit ot finer flap dish should shine it up fast with out risking too much damage to it. Over all I say $200 is a good deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keykeeper Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 I don't see a thing wrong with either of those, although the Colombian is great, IMHO. Use them both, work around the problems on the Ajax. Plenty of flat surface on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwczerr Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 The Columbian is in very nice shape.....the Ajax, as you said, has seen much more use and the edges are gone. I'd recommend using the Columbian for forging and hanging on to the Ajax as it is without doing any repairs. Chances are the repairs aren't going to completely match the original anvil, you may soften what's left of the face, etc....too much to go wrong. The anvils are similar in size - just use the good one for now. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 Sometimes it is good to have another anvil mounted, even if it's not perfect. For example, you may want to do an operation to a part, and then use a hardy cut off tool in the same heat. And since a hardy cutting tool should never be in an anvil when working on the face, by the time you put the hardy back into your one anvil, you may have lost the heat. Another Good use of a not perfect anvil is that straightening iron is easier on a swayed anvil than on a perfectly flat one. Try to resist the urge to "fix" it until you have done a lot of research. You hardly spent too much money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dablacksmith Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 you did great on the price!!! and i agree with everyone else ... start hammering ! the one has a real good face ... the other isnt as bad as you think . if you ever have kids forgeing or someone you dont really trust have them use the worse one ,, less chance of damageing it ... i dont know what anvils go for in your area but 200 canadian is a great price for one of those in most areas ..have fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Ameling Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 (edited) Nothing "foolish" about what you spent for those anvils. Those chipped edges only bother if you are doing stuff where you need a corner of the anvil. And usually you can just shift over to a section that has a better corner for the specific project. But you can also clean up and radius some of those chipped corners. This can give you more bending/fullering options. An angle grinder does wonders to smooth and round up chipped edges. As to the anvil face. It all depends upon how bad it is and over how much of the surface. Going over the surface lightly with an angle grinder and flap wheel tends to clean things up very well - usually only leaving a couple deep dents. Plus don't overlook your woodworking belt sander. They can do wonders for smoothing up and blending out scratches on an anvil surface. It will knock down the "high points" a lot easier than work with an angle grinder until you get more experience with the angle grinder. Again, nothing foolish about your investment. Just get them into your shop area and start working! Mikey - that grumpy ol' German blacksmith out in the Hinterlands p.s. My books are kind of buried right now, but as I recall AJAX anvils were a hardware store brand that was made by Trenton. Nothing wrong with them. My first real anvil was an AJAX. Picked it up at a household auction in town They had almost nothing for tools listed, just household and furniture. It was one of the first things sold, and I got it for $60! Approximately 130#. The face and horn were almost pristine! The only "problem" was a minor chip on the corner of the heel where it had tipped over years before. One of the BEST deals I ever came across. It's still in my shop, just kind of buried off to the side. I should treat it better than that. Edited May 30, 2009 by Mike Ameling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaret Posted May 30, 2009 Author Share Posted May 30, 2009 Excellent. Thanks for all the input. Buddy has one more 100 pound peter wright which is in excellent shape. Going to go get that in a couple weeks. Thanks for all the insight. Ill post my polished anvils later. Thanks J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragons lair Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 At the risk of irrattating a lot of you. My tools as taught by a swedish grandfather are kept or restored to best condition. Anvils are belt sanded radiused and blackened at best. Vises are cleaned tightened and blackened. Grew up owning many vintage cars and bikes. drive your vintage with faded paint, rotten rockers. ratty interior. dripping oil, blowing smoke. Not for me. my vehiclesand tools don't require patina. My 88lb Hay- Budden came with a great face. No horn Now it has a horn. My 142 Hay-Budden had rolled edges and a few deep chips pits now flat faced, even radiused edges.I may be wrong but I am D--m happy with my tools Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olcarguy Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 Quote Dragon's Lair: "My 88lb Hay- Budden came with a great face. No horn Now it has a horn. My 142 Hay-Budden had rolled edges and a few deep chips pits now flat faced, even radiused edges.I may be wrong but I am D--m happy with my tools" Would it be posible for you to give us a low down on your repair practice...Please Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvillain Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 I'm with Dragon's Lair on anvil repair. I weld and grind and make it do my bidding. However I've had a lot of welding and ginding experience. It is not a quick or easy job. And my repaired anvil has places where the metal does not match in color. That is no problem for ME. I like it because I have no dips and gouges, I have straight corners with radii to my liking. If I had a museum quality anvil, I would not enjoy using it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragons lair Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 Old car guy, The 88 lb H-B the horn was snapped off about 3/8 in past the table. Located a 3 1/2 in X7 in round drop. Drilled and tapped 3/4 in. Drilled and tapped the anvil same. snugged down a 3/4 stud. V grooved almost to the stud. Welded with 7018. Set both anvils on a horse. Rough shaped with O/A torch. Finished with grinder. Have had a few old timers not be able to tell which one was hornless. The 142 H-B was welded up with hard face rod. It is a late model with the solid tool steel top. I do NOT advise doing this unless you or your welder has a solid background. I have been pushing a weld bead around for about 40 yrs. I do not weld these as part of my welding fabricating work. If I fail its on me and my stuff. Its also a LOT of time. I built a track anvil for my first has a horn,table, sq hardy and pritchel. About 35lbs cost labor and matl. Some where about $750. I won't make another or sell that one. I also have a 350 amp welder, 9 and 4 1/2 in grindersbelt sanders and a mill. For my own use its worth it. For anyone else thats up to you. PM if you need more. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drifter Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 What type hard surface rod yuou use if I may Dragons Lair? I too made my living welding and have an old Hobart contractors special. I have been thinking on building me a R R Iron anvil for the time being until a real anvil surfaces. Drifter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragons lair Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 Drifter, I had some 20 yr old Stulz rods both underlay and hard face. Used some as stick some as Tig (chipped and wire wheeled the flux off) I seem to recall there are several old posts listing other hard face rods and ways to use them. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlotte Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 I repaired and re-hard faced a mouse hole anvil. Major effort and I had access to big three phase welder. I used a 6010 or 6011 rod for the body repair. I forget what rod I used for the hard facing. My buddy that owned a welding distributorship twisted some arms with his lincoln sales rep for a handful of freebies. The rod I used for the face was one which is used for railroad track points. Be aware some hard facing rods are intended to check as they cool. I used a home built burner to heat the anvil. (The same burner that we used to boil shirmp, crawfish and crabs in 20 gal pots.) I temp sticked it up to 500 deg f. before I stated welding. I built a wind break around the anvil. If I took a break I packed kao wool around it to keep if from cooling off too much. One day to weld the face and the body. I used a cape chisel to cut down into the cracks around the horn seam so that I could weld back. Then I took three days to grind and mill the face and body. I discovered accidently that silica inclusions in the wrought Iron will destroy a milling cutter in a heart beat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 The problem is that a new person may not have the skills or the knowledge on how to properly repair an anvil and so may do it harm trying to "pretty it up". Ever seen a lovely vintage car that was trashed by someone trying to "restore it"? Like sharp corners---my old smithing books tell you that the first thing you do when buying a new anvil is to round the corners! So making them sharp is not the way to go to get it back to original using condition. Like medicine: "First Do No Harm" then if you have the skills and equipment proceed with caution! I have a friend who had a PW re-done by a machine shop. Paid good money for them to ruin his anvil as they milled the face down till it was too thin to use. He was just getting started way back when. Just recently he had it refaced by a highly skilled blacksmith and weldor---took about 5-6 hours using the big welder (not counting the pre-heat!) commercial cost of that welding would be more than buying an anvil in better condition to start! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drifter Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 I am wondering out loud here. 7018 as a cushion layer and main build up and an overlay of maybe 316L. The 7018 has much more elasticity then a 6010 or 6011 in my memory anyway of reading.. I know for vibration aplications the 7018 will outshine the 6011. If attaching a piece of spring steel to a cast steel anvil I would think 316 or 316L would work better then a lot of other rods.Never have been sold on NI rod. Any thoughts or experiances on this? Drifter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlotte Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 (edited) I finally found my Lincoln Procedure Handbook. It give low hydrogen as a requirement and pre-heat to at least 400 deg F. Interpass temperature allowable to 100-200 degree higher with peening suggested and assumption of stress relief heat treating. ps they are more concerned with hot cracking than cold cracking. Edited June 2, 2009 by Charlotte ps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drifter Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 (edited) Good to know Charlotte. do they also recommend a post heat? In the Army TM9-237 they had a section on armor plate repair that had something have not seen since. You were to gouge or grind out a double bevel @ 60degrees this was also the standard for welding cast iron. Then drill and tap a mild steel bolt into the parent metal in several spots to give you a more weldable anchor point. All armor plate was to be patched with stainless rod. At that time they were buying stoody 316-16 and we ran it on DC reverse with the P&H welders. 1975-78 yes I am getting old but still on the right side of the daisys. Drifter Edited June 3, 2009 by Drifter added some to end Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlotte Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 They were assuming that the material would be stress relieved. So yes post heat. I don't know what the alloy for armour plate is. If you can find a copy of the Lincoln Procedure Handbook of Arc Welding then you can check out the info on the different rod series for an alloy match. I haven't looked but maybe you could find a used copy on Amazon. I bought mine 10 years direct for the company. Big thing is low hydrogen so 7016 or 7018 at min. They are also talking about E8016 or E8018 as being good rods for this as Low Hydrogen, extra strength and chrom-moly type rods. As for bevel you will have to do it any way to get your rod in. All though what you really need is just a relief to get you rod in and peen the weld as you are working. I'm not a big time weldor, what I know is mostly from talking with real weldors that I had the good fortune to work with and had the time to teach/show me what they knew. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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