1045 vs 4140

[John Martin]

Which do you prefer for hammers, dies, heck even a homemade anvil, chisels, punches.

Note: This is between just these two steels, for those of you who have H-13 for dies and what not, great, it's better than 1045 or 4140, but this is just between the two steels.

Here are some properties of both...

1045: Carbon 0.42-0.5; Manganese 0.6-0.9; Phosphorus 0.04; Sulfur 0.05; Tensile Strength 95,000 PSI; Yield Strength 56,000 PSI

4140: Carbon 0.35-0.43; Manganese 0.75-1; Silicon 0.15-0.35; Chromium 0.8-1.1; Molybdenum 0.15-0.25; Phosphorus 0.035; Sulfur 0.04;
Tensile Strength 140,000 PSI; Yield Strength 90,000 PSI;

Right off the bat, it looks like 4140 is a better overall steel, plus it has more toughness than 1045, but price can sometimes stop you, so which do you prefer and why?

[rthibeau]

1045 is a water quench, 4140 is mostly an oil quench. IF cost is not a factor, 4140 is the choice unless you don't have oil quench capability. I use both for hammers, but it seems the 4140 shines up prettier.

[matt993fod]

If you don't have dedicated heat treatment equipment you won't be able to make full advantage of alloy steels.

You can't dump fancy steel in the good ole' forge, soak it for X number of minutes, dump it in some gammy old oil and then say "Hey, I did it by the book". Proper heat treatment is a science.

Practically, the average smith with the average tools will not notice the difference between good old plain carbon 1045 and 4140. Fussing over tensile and yeild strength figures will get one nowhere.

[John Martin]

Matt, no one is fussing over anything, this is merely an open conversation as to who likes what and why, I only posted the properties, so that people might learn more about the two.

Yes, you're right, most people can't HT is as it's supposed to be within 10 +/- of the suggested HT range, but a lot of us can get really close to that. anyhow, do you have a preference?

[Sam Salvati]

1045 because it is easy, heat, beat, rough grind, harden, temper light, finish grind and done. Doesn't need precision, doesn't need a light touch.

The tools I have made from 4140 though have been quite good, both are good IMHO no need to compare. I know a sword making company who uses 4140 almost exclusively, water quenches it every time with no failure rate, and who's swords are used daily in reenactment and steel on steel mock theater combat.

[Finnr]

Bill Epps made his hammers from water quenched 4140. So do I.

Finnr

[johnptc]

4140 is great for tools my choice over 1045 hands down

[tinbender]

question,

What about 4140 for tools that alot of people don't HT figuring heat from the iron would draw the temper anyway? My impression is that 4140 is tougher than 1045 in the normalized state but that may just be in my head.

Dave

[ptree]

One consideration is that almost every machine shop in the world has 4140 or the local equivelent, as it is cheap, easy to HT and is used for many tools, so scrap drops and the like are readily available. 1045 is indeed a good steel, but much less available and in less sizes/shapes.
AND, if you need a really good tool, almost any good heat treater can give you smack on results with the 4140, if you have the need and can pay for the heat treatment. And since so much 4140 is professionally treated, it can be run in a batch with other 4140, reducing cost.
For my little shop, I use the 4140, since that is the scrap I was able to get. See above:)

[Sweany]

1045 heat treat specs
1045 Carbon Steel Bar - Interlloy

4140 heat treat specs
http://www.metalsuppliersonline.com/Research/Property/metals/25.asp

I don't see anything here that requires special heat treat equipment it doesn't need high hold rates as do some stainless and more exotic alloys.

Both steels should both be heat treatable in the average shop.

Blacksmith's have been making their own tools since,well..since they started making blacksmiths.

The addition of chrome makes the the 4140 tougher than the 1045.
If I didn't have any 4140 I'd use 1045.
If I had to buy some steel I'd buy 4140.

the 4140 specs don't show it, but the proper welding rod for it is also 7018.

which makes it easy for building tooling. Weld then heat treat.

IF I was making an anvil I'd defianantly use 4140 for the top plate. it would be way tougher than the 1045.

[brianbrazealblacksmith]

I use 4140 because I get drops of it for free in a large range of sizes, but for making hammers by hand with a striker I'd prefer to use 1045 because it yeilds to the hammer alot easier.

[Bill in Oregon]

Just for the heck of it, where would 5160 fit into this discussion?

[John Martin]

This 1045 and 4140........but 5160 for what?

[Steve Sells]

This 1045 and 4140........but 5160 for what?

For what ? did you forget already , you started this thread. LOL

[John Martin]

I don't know, I've never heard of 5160 in large stock, but of course, I'm sure it is. I just wanna know for sure what you(Bill in Oregon) want to talk about for 5160.

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

Well it really depends on the application and the size of the piece, and probably more important what ya got kickin' around the shop. If one was truly "better" then the steel companies would quit making the others. They make so many different steels because each has it's own place.

Usually you move "up" because the steel you're using does not do what you want. Carbon steels have served well for hundreds (thousands?) of years. They are still made in large quantity because they serve well for many things. But over one in thick you can't get good hardness. That is usually when you switch to 4140. But when you get above two-inch thick IT won't harden well. Then we often switch to 4340. Oil quenching usuaually causes less warpage also.

4140 has been a popular steel in the forge shop because it forges well, is easy to heat treat and gives outstanding strength. I would not use it for an anvil face because in heavy sections, like an anvil, it just won't get hard enough.

Learn how to heat treat and you can get results that are very near what commercial heat treaters get. Blacksmiths have been doing it for thousands of years. In fact, the heat treaters and engineers learned from us!

So, which is better: peanut butter or jelly?

[forgemaster]

We will normally quench 4140 above 3" thick in water from 870 deg C then temper to 600 degC to achieve between 277-311 HBN. Below 3" thick we use oil, one of the problems with 4140 in oil is getting suffient depth of hardness, usually you will get a skin hardness but not core hardness. I have had fairly bad results quenching 4140 in water when we have made blades chisels etc (cracking, etc). When tempering 4140 it is advised to stay out of the impact brittleness zone (245 deg C to 475 deg C) as tempering 4140 in this range can cause fair degrees of brittleness. It is normally recomended to temper either above or below these ranges. This is not a problem encountered with 1045 so I suppose that may be a plus for 1045 in a small workshop.
Phil