toolles Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 Please explain the need to make forge welded hammers for blacksmith work. I saw a link to a web page where there are, for sale, forge welded 80 layer folded steel hammer heads. I suppose the head is stronger and won't mushroom as easily? What other advantages are there? Les Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 Sales gimmick? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
781 Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 most damascus hammers go into a collecton of tools to be displayed not used as hammers. Tom Clark and Hank Knickmier (SP) did one for the 2004 ABANA conference which was raffled off Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonjic Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 Dont think there are any advantages over a mono steel hammer other than they look pretty and would be fun to make and a good boast point! oh, and pride in your tools. You can H.T a mono steel hammer lots of ways to suit your needs. The Carbon content of the steel in a patterwelded hammer will have prettywell homogonised after a few folds in its making, so no advantage there. Some of the alloying elements, like Nickle wont migrate, but I cant see any benfit to its hammering ability from that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 A pattern welded hammer is a trophy tool. A welded steel face on an iron body was common practice for most hammers untill steel became cheap to produce and buy. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt87 Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 The same reasons as for pattern-welded anything; it's pretty and because you can. Today we can produce, choose and heat-treat steels better than at any known point in history, there is no scientifically measurable or quantifiable advantage that pattern-welded steel has over mono steel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnr Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 I have seen a few very old blacksmith's hammers that were welded up from what ever scrap the smith had around . Wrought iron with an added carbon steel face. More work than i would care to do. Finnr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rthibeau Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 I made a couple pattern welded hammers just because hammers is what I like to do and I wanted to try pattern welding. IMHO the nickel in the mix interferes with a good tempering for a hammer so it is softer in spots. For a better blacksmith hammer, mono steel is the way to go. I've used mine, but mostly they are for show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bentiron1946 Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 I like show:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quenchcrack Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 I am not speaking with any depth of knowlege here so feel free to correct me. I believe pattern welding is a fairly recent creation. It was an attempt to discover how real Damascus was made. Aside from the occasional (and probably accidental) patterns in some very old blades, I don't think you will see much of anything that looks like todays pattern welded steel in a truely antique tool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonjic Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 The same reasons as for pattern-welded anything; it's pretty and because you can. Today we can produce, choose and heat-treat steels better than at any known point in history, there is no scientifically measurable or quantifiable advantage that pattern-welded steel has over mono steel. hmmm, Lots of people think that a patternwelded blade will (can) cut better than a mono steel one, and Im inclined to agree with them, under certain circumsances. If the pattern is forged in certain ways you can effectively have very small serrations along the cutting edge (or directly above the stropped cutting edge) of the blade, which is a definate advantage when cutting some things like meat. When cutting somthing like cheese it can stick to the side of a monosteel blade, but wont stick to an etched patternwelded blade (as a decent % of the surface area of the blade face is relieved.) Speaking to someone recently who is writing a post-grad paper on patterwelding they were telling me that quite a bit of research is currently being done on using combinations of metals for industrial guillotine baldes etc, with marked improvements in performance over the best mono's available. Unfortunatly I do not have a citation for this though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlpierson Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 I think that pattern welding being a recent invention is only partially correct. I've seen photographs of ancient, mostly rusty, viking blades which definitely had pattern welded centers with carefully designed patterns in them. Of course Javanese kris and such are another counter example. However I think you are correct both in that the famous Damascus blades were not pattern welded, at least not normally and that today's pattern welding goes far beyond anything we have historical evidence of. I seriously doubt that ancient tooling or steel was up to anything like the family of twisted W's patterns for example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonjic Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 QC, Im very far from knowledgable on truly old blades, but can state that 'status' pieces were definatly forged with patterns in for aesthetic purposes. The Sutton Hoo sword was made with an 8 bar core, with offset interupted twists. No reason to do this other than it looks nice! (quite a detailed description in 'The Pattern Welded Blade' by Jim Hrisoulas) - probably the most famous example.British Museum - Sword from the ship-burial at Sutton Hoo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Budd Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 pattern welding is as old as iron working! A bloom straight from the furnace is a netrogenous mass of iron and varying carbon content steels. It is first consolidated and worked into a billet. That is going to show some pattern beyond that of simple wrought iron (which would be he soft bits of the bloom taken seperately). Very soon (IE early Iron Age) the need to put a steel edge onto things was picked up. Only a three layer laminate but it is still the basics of pattern welding Oh and the posh herringbone swords of the Anglo Saxons were also being made in the 2nd Century for Roman swords :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt87 Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 pattern welding is as old as iron working! A bloom straight from the furnace is a netrogenous mass of iron and varying carbon content steels. It is first consolidated and worked into a billet. That is going to show some pattern beyond that of simple wrought iron (which would be he soft bits of the bloom taken seperately). Ah but here don't we get into the debate of what is pattern-welding as opposed to more general fire-welding? hmmm, Lots of people think that a patternwelded blade will (can) cut better than a mono steel one, and Im inclined to agree with them, under certain circumsances. If the pattern is forged in certain ways you can effectively have very small serrations along the cutting edge (or directly above the stropped cutting edge) of the blade, which is a definate advantage when cutting some things like meat. When cutting somthing like cheese it can stick to the side of a monosteel blade, but wont stick to an etched patternwelded blade (as a decent % of the surface area of the blade face is relieved.) Speaking to someone recently who is writing a post-grad paper on patterwelding they were telling me that quite a bit of research is currently being done on using combinations of metals for industrial guillotine baldes etc, with marked improvements in performance over the best mono's available. Unfortunatly I do not have a citation for this though. Very interesting and I stand corrected. A similar situation occurs in traditional Scandinavian cross-country skis, where the dark and pale rings (or at least the straight lines in the side-grain) wear at different rates causing lower friction after a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnr Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 Pattern weld was common on Norse swords a thousand years ago. Finnr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quenchcrack Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 What did the smiths use for contrast a thousand years ago? Just plain iron layered with higher carbon steel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 May I commend to your attention "The Celtic Sword" by Radomir Pleiner. A scholarly tome with much metallographic information on how they made their blades. In it you will see the start of going from a piled structure to a pattern welded structure. So late Roman/early migration period for pattern welded blades in Europe. More than just C variations were involved as some of the early ones also used rather high Phosphorous "irons". Tricky to use but phosphorous is also a hardening element. Damascus is a term that has been used for several centuries to refer to two very different materials: pattern welded as was used all over the world---anywhere they used the bloomery method of smelting iron they came up with pattern welding too. And wootz which was a crucible steel method that seems to have it's home in central asia and been exported to other countries. It is possible to find examples of swords that are composed of *both* types of damascus, usually in alternating chevrons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KNeilson Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 I believe pattern welding is a fairly recent creation. Fairly recent is a relative term, man has only been on the planet since fairly recently if you look at the big picture. I ran across this site the other day, and it will show pattern welding as it happened in the 18-19 century. Lots of neat information as well as pictures. Also a good look at the industry of making gun barrels back in the day........ KerryDamascus-Barrels Forge Welded Barrels Research & Information Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deker Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 I am not speaking with any depth of knowlege here so feel free to correct me. I believe pattern welding is a fairly recent creation. It was an attempt to discover how real Damascus was made. Aside from the occasional (and probably accidental) patterns in some very old blades, I don't think you will see much of anything that looks like todays pattern welded steel in a truely antique tool. The Celts and Vikings did quite a lot of pattern welding in their swords. It's almost certain that it began as a way to make use of higher and lower quality iron and steel together, but they raised it to high art in the 8th-10th centuries. As for pattern welded hammers, it's just for looks. That said, I like just about anything pattern welded -d Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Salvati Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 As for pattern welded hammers, it's just for looks. That said, I like just about anything pattern welded -d DITTO :cool: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shane Stegmeier Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 (edited) Originally patternwelding was done to overcome the limitations of the materials available! Thomas Powers pointed to one of the best/easiest to find books on early patternwelding. But he didn't put the cookies on the bottom shelf. Most of the "countries" in Europe had their ore contaminated with phosphorus and/or sulfer. The Swedes didn't and thus had best iron ore sources in all of Europe, (Which is why Huntsman always used Swedish wrought in his crucible steel, and why Swedish tool or crucible steel is still a name that we recognise for its purity and quality...) Some localities also had some benificial alloying present in the ores, which made steel produced in that area have slightly different characteristics, often these places became metalworking centers (an example was Insbrook, which became a center famous for its armour making.) Into this you can add to the fact that many early patternwelded blades often added extra phosphorus to hardened/embrittled steel. To get the durability it was neccessary to do the laminating with non-embrittled "alloys", early steels were not reliable/durable enough to make into long blades. Patternwelding "disappeared" between 900-1000 in western Europe... Because smelting and steel making improved to the point that they could produce not only "more" wrought iron and steel, but "better" steel that could be made into long blades that stand up to combat. It was also at this same time as iron began to get "cheaper" that iron horse shoes began to come into common use. The Japanese laminating process was developed to overcome the Magenese found in the iron sands which they made their steel from, which made it a deep hardening alloy. Again brittle sword bad, hard edge good, flexible shock resistant sword blade good. People don't generally come up with really complicated exhausting processes just to make themselve feel important, and for bragging rights;-) You work to make the material do what you want it to do. Laminated and patternwelding were originally done to overcome the limitations of the materials, and to economize, steel was expensive... What is cool is that these innovations ended up having superior working characteristics, the micro serations on the western patternwelding, and the superior slicing of the japanese blades... Now a days when steel is cheap, and time is also cheap;-) (we have hobbies right;-) Now a days "damascus" is for bragging rights;-) Damascus hammers are "pointless" pretty but pointless... Now if you lamninated hard faces, on medium carbon steel around a mild steel center, and punched your eye in the mild that might have some benifit??? ;-) Edited June 2, 2009 by Fionnbharr (finn:-) boneheaded spelling and grammer errors;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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