archiphile Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 I am planning to make some leaves for the AU Tree Project. I am going to use copper as that is what I have on hand. To be more specific I have a copper ground rod that is pounded in to the ground for the panel box. I want to know a few things.A.) Is forging this safe.? (i.e. do we thinks it might be Beryllum Copper) B.) What is the color if any that copper gets when it is hot enough? Any thoughts that you guys and gals have would be great. Thank you Best, Archiphile Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Dean Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 Might want to check your 'copper' rod, some are copper clad not solid copper. I also plan to use copper to make my leaf for the AU Tree. Thanks for posting this thread. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 I've always bought my copper from Industrial Metal Supply and it is basically pure copper. I don't know about the rod you have, but I've heard you should be careful when it comes to scrap copper that you're not sure of. As for the forging of heavier copper you'll like it. It moves like yellow hot steel only alot longer just like pure silver does. You can heat it to red and forge until you notice it getting harder. If you continue to try and force it out after this you can beat the outer surface onto itself and form blisters which will pop and cause pitting. I usually heat it on top of my fire so I can see it because once you go past bright red it will melt rather quickly. I believe the dust from grinding can be hamful just like other metal but even more so. I don't grind it and I work outside. I haven't had any metal poisoning, but you can taste it when handling it some times, so somethings going on there. I'd like to hear from others as well on this subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archiphile Posted March 26, 2009 Author Share Posted March 26, 2009 Nope,it is not clad. The bar is solid. I am mostly trying to make sure that I am not going to die in the process of making a memorial. I really want it to be a memorial to the brave folks in OZ. Not one for me in the process. And looking for help with identifying the color of the working temps. of the metal itself. I have never had any experience with copper other that the occasional soldering of a plumbing pipe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 As copper nears its forging temp you can see shadows flash across its surface, then dull red, then red, then bright red, then gone. It will heat up faster the thinner you get of coarse so pay attention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe-Wood Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 archiphile- I'm sure you know this but you can also work copper cold. Heat until you see the shadows flash around the surface (dull red, in low ambiant light) and quench in water. For thin stuff, this is far safer. When I do alot of copper work, I ware gloves (one of the only times). Also, don't breath the fumes coming out of the forge. I beleive they contain copper oxide, similar to the product used in pressure treated lumber. When you first put the copper in the forge watch the fire, it turns a wonderful green! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 If it's a golden color it's probably a byrillium alloy and not safe to forge, grind, etc. Buying a known alloy from a proper supplier is as close to a guarantee of safe forging alloy as you're going to get. What you have is intended to be driven into the ground with a sledge hammer, it's unlikely to be pure copper and I don't know what was used to strengthen it up. Forging copper is very enjoyable, it can be done hot, after you melt it off a couple times you'll get the color right. OR you can forge it cold and anneal when it starts hardening up. I mostly cold work it myself but when I anneal I don't bother quenching, I just take it to the anvil and go to work on it. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Thompson Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 I've heard that putting copper into a fire will prevent any subsequent welds (in iron/steel) from taking, is that so? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintjohnbarleycorn Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 the people I know who work copper cold wear a mask, for the copper dust. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don A Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 I've heard that putting copper into a fire will prevent any subsequent welds (in iron/steel) from taking, is that so? The way I understand it, the copper has to melt into the fire to contaminate the forge. Upon doing so, trace molten copper can wick into the grain of the steel and prevent it from sticking. I'm sure there have probably been some exaggerations about how much damage can be done by a small amount of copper, but I choose not to take any chances. My welds need all the help they can get without aggravating the situation! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 *please* check that ground rod as I have never seen one that was not steel coated with a heavy copper layer---got 3 at the house right now, one of which will go to tie my new shop to ground. When you say you know it's solid I assume you have cut off an end of it and checked the center, correct? The end will probably be coated as well to prevent corrosion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archiphile Posted March 26, 2009 Author Share Posted March 26, 2009 (edited) Thomas Powers, I have checked the stock. I was present at the first cutting,the electrical worker cut it from a larger piece that he and I had pounded in the ground, and I have recently made a new cut, just to be safe. The rod is not copper clad steel. I am kind of scared to do any thing but recycle it and use those funds to purchase new stock that I now exactly what is in it. I DO NOT want to end up like Paw Paw(God rest his soul).Thank you all for your input and insight. Edited March 26, 2009 by archiphile To add content and a thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 Sam, Don: I've melted probably a good lb or so of copper in my old pipe forge and it's had no effect on subsequent welds on steel. Also note that commercial mig wire and gas welding rod is copper plated to prevent corrosion. Lastly, many steel alloys contain copper and as far as I know they weld fine as well. A36 typically has a higher Cu content than 1018 and "usually" welds fine. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Ameling Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 I've hot and cold forged a little copper over the years. Forging copper is a "dead" blow. The copper absorbs most of your blow, and you get little or no rebound. Kind of like hitting lead. It will wear your arm out quickly. I have used electrical buss-bars for a number of projects, as well as those old farm electrical wires - the thick ones. Here's a pic of some Copper Culture reproductions I forged up for Grand Portage National Monument - for their pre-European contact Ojibwe Indian village. I used electrical buss-bars and wire for these. And I forged up a pair of door pulls from some 1 x 1 1/2 square copper bars - again, electrical buss-bars from some large factory machine. I was glad I had the large air hammer for them! Even the finish hammering by hand wore my arm out fast. (sorry, no pics) They went onto a pair of wood doors that I covered with random-sized rectangular sheets of copper glued on and nailed with brass nails at all the corners and along the edges. Then "flame" patina'd and sealed with a clear plastic coat to seal in the colors. Turned out real nice, and the client loved it. Yes, I did the main forging of the copper bars hot. Just heat up carefully. Get it to that dull red color and start working. That red glow will disappear quickly, but you will start to feel the copper stiffen up as you hammer. If you hammer it too much after it hardens, it can/will crack on you. Fun projects, and an interesting ... change ... from working iron/steel and wrought iron. Scraps of roofing copper would work well for some hammering/texturing/repousse work - when it is annealed. Mikey - that grumpy ol' german blacksmith out in the Hinterlands Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don A Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 (edited) Sam, Don: I've melted probably a good lb or so of copper in my old pipe forge and it's had no effect on subsequent welds on steel. Also note that commercial mig wire and gas welding rod is copper plated to prevent corrosion. Lastly, many steel alloys contain copper and as far as I know they weld fine as well. A36 typically has a higher Cu content than 1018 and "usually" welds fine. Frosty Thanks for that reply Frosty. It's good to know that I won't have to scrap my firepot if I happen to have a leaky braze joint. I always try to approach those warnings with a bit of respect, even though I might suspect urban legend (rural legend?) or old wive's tale. I guess the most repeated one is where some wise-guy catches the old smith's back turned and pitches a penny in his forge, and from then on he can't get a weld to stick for love or money. But, I'll continue to keep my iron in the fire and my pennies in my pocket... just in case. Don BTW, I've got some good copper bars, 2" x 1/8" (a few thicker), 12"-16" long. I'll post these on the Tailgating forum when I can, but you can PM me if you are interested. Edited March 27, 2009 by Don A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 Don: It's almost always a good idea to pay attention to cautionary tales, not knowing any different. It's called being conservative or wise. The story I'd heard was about zinc poisoning a forge for welding, unfortunately or fortunately, the guy who insisted it was true told me well after I'd done some forge brazing in my then charcoal forge build in a piece of galvanized pipe. Even after I did a forge weld for him, using briquettes which he also positively insisted would NOT make enough heat to weld with, in the zinc poisoned forge he wouldn't change his mind. Sometimes ignorance really is bliss. However, I'd read about smiths making forge brazes in books. This would negate both the copper and zinc poisoning theory. The tale might've originated when a competing smith wanted to limit another without actually sabotaging his operation. Disinformation is a valid commercial tactic after all. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DClaville Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 thanks for this tread it is some good info DC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernesto Brown Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 hi am 11 year's old and I have never worked with copper. But isn't there something in copper that burn's? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Hi Ernesto: The answer is yes and no. Almost any metal will burn in the right conditions, copper included. However you can't get it hot enough in a forge to burn. Melt and disappear into the bottom of your forge? Oh sure, you betcha. Burn? No. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Ameling Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 In one of his Basic Blacksmithing video's, Hershel House forges up a trigger guard for an early flintlock rifle. And he ... forge brazes ... the two parts together. He did drill and lightly rivet the two parts together with a strip of brass between them, but then he did the braze in his coal forge. But all that really amounted to was getting things hot enough to melt the brass and holding everything correctly aligned as it cooled. The Indians of the Copper Culture time period worked their copper nuggets in simple campfires - with green sticks for tongs and rocks for anvils and hammers. Final shaping/grinding/finish was done by rubbing things on rocks. Yet they were able to make knives, spear heads, arrow heads, awls, fish hooks, and many decorative pieces. As with so many things, it's not the tools you have, it is what you do with what tools you have available. Remember, copper is a "dead" metal to work - it has almost no rebound and absorbs most of your hammer blow. It will wear out your arm far faster than you think. Plan accordingly. Mikey - that grumpy ol' german blacksmith out in the Hinterlands Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 I agree, copper is dead to work but it does absorb virtually all the energy you put into it and moves far more with each blow than iron or steel. Working 3/4" copper is about on a par with working 3/8" steel. At least that's my experience. YYMV of course. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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