Making my own anvil.

[John Martin]

This is more of a brainstorm that a problem.

I was looking into buying a bigger shop anvil towards the end of this summer, and I did some research, and I could make one for little money compared to buying one that is the same size and model.

This anvil is going to be a combination of a euroanvil, hofi anvil, and the german pattern.

It will have three pritchel holes, and a 1" hardy.

Once I have some extra money for this project (this whole project should cost around $700), I am going to buy two 12"x12"x5" A-36 plate drops from the local metal supplier. I am also going to buy a 1"x5"x36" piece of 4140.

I will use one of the 12x12 pieces as the main part of my anvil. The other one I will cut into halves, and than rough cut to shape after that.

The anvil will be 13-14" tall, 5" wide, and 34-36" long. Anywhere from 350-450lbs.

I am going to HT the face plate prior to welding onto the anvil body. Do I have to worry about losing my HT when welding? The plate is 1" thick. The welding area will be preheated with a torch to 300-350 degrees. I am going to grind a 1/4" - 1/2" space between the anvil and faceplate on both sides of the body, leaving a 1" tab running down the middle of the anvil body. The first bit of welding will be to run a deep penetrating bead done both sides of the tab where there is direct contact with the face plate. After that, it will be just plugging and filling for maximum weld strengh, and obviously, to fix the gab. Will I have to worry about the plate seperating down the road? It will be heated again to 300-350 degrees after welding for stress relief.

Is this the right way to do it, or do I not need that much welding?
Will I have to worry about the welded area itself pushing out or the top of the anvil mushrooming?

The heel and horn will be welded on the same way. The hardy hole will be milled out of the horn before welding it on.

I have attached a rough picture that I just quickly drew up in paint. In the picture I have a cross section of how I want to weld it, and the blurry parts are areas that will be welded, the whole face plate will be welded, I just didn't want do the whole thing blurry. I have four sheets of paper that have detailed drawings of the whole process and anvil that I will upload once I can get them scanned.

Also, do i want the side shelf and upsetting block on the same side or on opposing sides?

This won't actually happen for quite a few months, but I want to learn and plan as much as possible to create the best possible anvil.

I welcome any tips, comments, or concerns.

[element]

I can only wish you good luck. Good luck.:p

[MLMartin]

if your going to weld a face plate onto the top of a anvil i would definitely recommend cutting the top of the mild anvil to a near point before you start welding the plate on, so that the plate will be 100% welded on, no gap in the middle, while i dont think the face plate will ever come off, if there is a place in the middle that is not welded it will create a dead stop, and no matter how close the top plate and mild body are together they will still vibrate and you'll lose alot of rebound, now and then old wrought iron anvils have there face separate in this middle some, and the outside edges still look great, but the rebound is never the same. a big 5inch anvil is great, but you would need to bevel in 2.5 inch to the center for either side, thats alot of welding, if you have a big enough welder and enough time, go for it, just make sure to look up alot of info on people that have replaced face plates and made there own anvils
best of luck, if you go for it we would all love to see pictures and know how it goes

[Dodge]

M-B, For the money you are planning to spend, have you looked into having it CNC cut? I don't know what it will cost, but for the work you are considering, a one piece blank would yield a much better finished product. I was able to do mine myself because it was my job at the time. I then rough shaped the horn with an O/A torch and finished with a flapwheel on my 9" grinder. I even still have the program, I think, if you are interested. It should work on any CNC machine that uses G-code. If you have a metal supplier locally that has drops the size you are talking, I would be very surprised if there isn't a CNC flame cutter locally as well.
Here's mine. Still need to drill pritchel and cut hardy. Also need to finish welding the feet. Not heat treated, but since I only hit hot steel on it, after 3 years, it has very minimal dings that I'm not afraid to weld up and buff off without harming anything.

[mike-hr]

Sounds like a great project! Grinding is never fun, do you know anyone with a milling machine to vee out the 5 inch plate prior to welding? Are you going to stickweld, or MIG? If MIG, what size is your machine? Most weldors would ask you vee down to full thickness minus 1/8 inch from all sides to get a full weld. That's a pile of welding! If you want to learn how to stick weld good, you'll be there when you're done. 4140 will get hard, but not as hard as a Peter Wright anvil. keep a tempil stick handy, and put your hands in your pockets when the face plate is over 400F. I have a big anvil with upsetting block, never used it. a chunk of plate on the floor seems to always be more convienient, my opinion only.

[John Martin]

Dodge, I'll see if they can cut it when I go there.

Mike, I have a stick welder, but I'm going to weld it up my friend's dad who is a welder. He has a gigantic stick machine. I'll be sure to keep one handy because me and my friend really don't want to have to try HT the face after its on the anvil. I'll keep you all updated, but that probably won't be for another four months. I'll also take lots of pictures. Thanks for the support.

[Dodge]

M_B, I may have spoke too soon about the program. I went to read the disk and it wouldn't read. Dunno if its corrupt or my floppy drive is toast. But worst case scenario, all you have to do is draw the anvil in something like CAD or a vector(?) file, and have it converted to G-code. I know, RIGHT? LOL Its really easier done than said!! Just ask someone that can do the CNC cutting. I bet its still cheaper and less labor intensive than what your OP describes. I was working on good equipment but dated. They have better easier to run stuff now.

[Chris Keppler]

Dodge,

I have been thinking of having a chunk of steel flame cut like your anvil. What steel did you use for yours? And it looks like there is no face plate? How many hours of actual cutting was invovled in that anvil?

Chris

[John Martin]

I'm going to finish the face plate before welding, and then when we do weld the face on, the face will line up because the hardy hole on the anvil body will have been made as well, I'll then put a 1" bar into the hardy slot, to help keep it all lined up as we go.

[ThomasPowers]

Note this is for someone who wants to build an anvil as the cost of materials, welding rods, electricity, and *time* will probably exceed the cost of buying one that size.

Now if you don't count your time, electricity and welding rod the cost looks different.

Sort of what I tell folks who want to take up smithing to make a sword---you'll have a much nicer sword a lot sooner mowing lawns than learning to smith; so if all you want is the sword, get out the mower!

[unkle spike]

I am with Thomas on this one, I would like a new car, but I don't think building one myself is the answer. It would take far more knowledge than I have to build an anvil, I would find better uses for my time. I leave some things to the professionals and pay for their expertise and *time*. Dodge did his own because he had the tools and knowledge at his disposal. I would hate to invest that much time and money, only to have it not work out and THEN have to buy what I need.

I am the cheapest person in the Iforge world, but sometimes even I throw in the towel, bite the bullet, break the dust out of my wallet and buy what I need.

There are good used anvils out there, just takes time to find one.

[Dodge]

Dodge,

I have been thinking of having a chunk of steel flame cut like your anvil. What steel did you use for yours? And it looks like there is no face plate? How many hours of actual cutting was invovled in that anvil?

Chris

Chis,

It is cut from a high yeild mild weathering steel. I don't know the exact specs but it has a given copper content to cause a rust to form that actually becomes a permanent protection. The high yeid is something that the company I worked for designated i.e. 70,000 psi tensil Vs 60,000 psi tensil. Its not A36 but it is still mild steel. I think our spec book called it S-22, but that has no corellation with any SAE standards. Just how it was listed in our Spec book.

No face plate but all of our flame cut steel seemed to have a surface harness. It was very tough to drill through but I don't believe it was much more than 1/32" or maybe 1/16" at best. However, as I stated above, I only hit hot steel on it. So far after 3 years, there aren't any serious dings that I have felt the need to repair. The basic profile maybe took 30 minutes (?) then perhaps another hour or hour or two of roughing curve and finishing with a flap wheel. My intention for a hardy is to drill a hole, then torch cut a squar and severely bevel that hole. Then I will weld a fabbed box in and gring flush.

Keep in mind as Jeff (unkle spike) pointed out, running the flame cutting machine was what I did for a livining. The 4" plate was a scrap center slug from the piece I cut that night and I was, as an employee, able to buy scrap very cheap. The whole project, not counting my time, cost me maybe $50. But I was lucky to have the contact in the programing department to transfer my drawing to a program for the CNC. If I did not have all of these factors going for me, I most likely, would not have taken on the project. Since I don't work in that field anylonger, I most certainly won't ever do it again. I'm just glad I cut several different sizes while I could. The biggest one, mine, is about 150#. The next size was about 70# and it lives in Hawaii now . The smallest is about 1 7/8" fron horn to heel and weighs about 1/2#


Bottom Line:
Is it a doable project? YES
Is it cheap? Depends on what scrap and CNC cutting cost you
It it a good anvil? YMMV
It it as good as a commercial made anvil? See above Edited March 26, 2009 by Dodge
spelling and semantics ;)

[Rich Hale]

Running a bead around the edges may work but none of the anvil makers did them that way...most were forge welded on. I suspect the with a perimeter bead you will get a dead spot in the middle..as mentioned above you can vee the whole mase up to almost a point and then fill back with weld layers. All this to get lwhat may or may not be a good anvil to work on.


Good luck

[Frosty]

Another thing about laying that much bead, the top plate is going to warp unless you're really careful or get tricky.

Here's one trick. Weld up an "I" from 1/2" sq stock, make sure it's good and flat. The height of the "I" is the length of your anvil face less an inch while the top and bottom are the same width less an inch.

Tack weld the "I" to the top of your flame cut anvil body and carefully lay the face plate on it and tack it. This is a weld spacer and means you don't need to scarf out the weld joint (grind a "V").

When you have everything ready and I recommend pre-heating if for no other reason than to aid deep penetration, unless you have a hefty welder. Start laying bead in the bottom along the "I" put an inch in the center, flip it over and do the same on the other side. Flip it again and split the distance to the ends of the "I" and do two, flip and repeat.

Once you have a good solid base pass in the trench and up the arms you can slip or drive a couple short pieces of 1/2" sq into the gap to keep it from pulling too badly and start laying serious beads. Keep flipping it to keep heat and pull even.

Make sure you have ALL the slag chipped out.

Lots of very HOT work.

This is an anvil one of our Association members welded up at my place with my Lincoln Ranger 9 and corefluxed wire feed. It's about 300lbs or so.

Frosty

[John Martin]

Okay, well I re-read that I think i understand what you are saying.

Make an I that is less than and inch wide and long on all sides than the anvil body. Then tack it all into place. To prevent warping, stick 1/2" bars into all the area possible under the plate where I'm not welding. Start in the middle on both sides. Then the middle of the two halves on both sides and so on. Once the direct contact areas have been welded. Move the 1/2" sticks around while filling and plugging the gap.

Also do you I could go 1/4" or 3/8"?

Wow, third edit now, lol. Do you think that to prevent mushrooming of the welded area done the road due to use that I should do something like this instead of just an "I"

|--|--|--|--|--|

I could would still be able to get 100% weld, and I would have no to barely any warpage as well. Is that a better way to go?

Edited March 27, 2009 by m_brothers

[Dragons lair]

Just a note. I made a 37lb rail anvil. Spent about 20 hrs cutting drilling welding and grinding. At my shop rate thats $1000 plus materials. Then bought 2 H-Bs 142lb and 88lb for about $300. Yeah I kept the rail only use it for fun. My thought is if you enjoy doing it do it. If you are looking to save $ forget it.
Ken

[Frosty]

The I shape is 1" shorter than the length of the face and 1" narrower. This will leave 1/2" open to weld around the edge of the face.

Only put a couple 1/2" shim bars between the two to prevent pulling and go ahead and weld them in. The idea is to get as complete a weld as possible so only use enough spacers to keep it true or close.

The weld bead isn't going to mushroom.

Frosty

[John Martin]

Thanks for the info frosty, btw what do you recommned being the bet way to chip it as we go? Bar with point on the end and a hammer? Cuz a normal welding hammer probably won't fit in there

[unkle spike]

I would use a welders chipping hammer, has a point on one end, and a "chisel" on the other, and take a wire cup brush on a grinder. You need to get it really clean so as not to get "slag inclusions" in the weld.

[Frosty]

It's 5" wide overall so dividing that it in half with a 1/2" bar leaves a 2 1/4" deep x 1/2" wide gap. The first couple passes will be hard to get with a chipping hammer, I'd use a narrow chisel and center punch for hard to get bits.

Once the gap has been filled a ways you'll be able to get in with the chipping hammer but keep the chisel and punch handy, some guys carry dental picks in their pockets.

I don't know what kind of stick welder you have but I'd be tempted to use a Jet rod like 7024, it flows very smoothly requires very little manipulation to get even penetration and the slag typically peels itself as it cools.

Frosty

[John Martin]

Thanks Frosty.

Can I use 3/8" instead, less to weld, probably less chance of weld failure, and less money?

Or is just easier and better to go with a 1/2" I?

[Dodge]

One more thought on an anvil made from solid pieces. I did some doodling in Sketchup, and came up with these. The body could be made of two main parts. A 5" x 12" x 12" base beveled as shown and the top, a 5" x 5" x 24" shaped and drilled with horns, pritchels and hardy as desired and then welded with 100% penetration to the base. Yeah, still a boat load of welding but it would be solid. I show an idea of how the feet could be attached as well. I think they were like 4" square blocks 2 1/2" thick, also beveled for welding. They wouldn't need to be 100%, I would bevel the bottom because you would be grinding them flush to sit level anyway. The rest of the way around wouldn't matter except for appearance :)

[Frosty]

Sure you could use 3/8" but it'd harder to manipulate the welding rod in that narrow a gap, especially to start when it's 2 1/4" deep.

It would sure cut down on the amount of welding AND it'd be easier to get equal penetration on both sides with less amperage. It'd also pull less because the amount of steel shrinking in the weld will be less.

It'd just be more difficult is all.

Frosty

[John Martin]

Well, I've been doing a fair-share of reading and research for this and I'm thinking I should use 6011 for the direct contact areas of the I, and then fill the gaps on both sides with 7018. 6011 is deep penetrating, and 7018 is easy to use, fills easily, and has a higher tensile strength which betters matches the anvils face plate.

[Frosty]

E6011 is good for the root pass though it'll be harder to get all the slag out due to the rougher bead surface and more strongly adhered slag. This isn't a pressure vessel and isn't going to be xrayed. You can make your root pass with your filler rod just fine.

You can get 100% penetration of 1/2" material easily welding from both sides at 100-110 amps. Being as this will be at the bottom of a pretty deep gap I'd up the amps a little to say 120a.

There's nothing wrong with 7018, it'll work perfectly well. However 7024 Jet is similar in characteristics except for a higher yield and lower deflection. (it's stiffer and tougher) The reason I think it's better for this is it's higher flow rate, it makes a very smooth bead at lower amperage than 7018, the slag just peels off so there's very little chance of inclusions. It's also super easy to weld with and get a good weld.

I've seen an occasion where the weldor laid the stinger down to do something and it fell over. When the rod touched the plate it started welding and laid a beautiful bead right to the stinger handle.

So, if 7024 Jet is available for a reasonable price, that's what I'd use. Not so much for a superior weld in itself but for the superior ease of laying good beads.

It isn't a must of course, 7018 is just fine.

Frosty