help with Pintles / wrapped & welded

[Don A]

I

[Ian]

If it was me I'd add a 'wedge' of material to fill the void. Do the wrap around and then insert the wedge, get it all up to a forgewelding heat and weld it up. Kind of like how axes were made many many moons ago. I saw a few examples in Sweden, made by a specialist in archeaological reproductions and based upon original viking finds. The wedge was discovered when the finds were X rayed.

[unkle spike]

Just a guess...what would happen if you used an "undersized" pin for the wrap, secure a good forge weld, then bring the eyelet to a good heat and drive the "correct" sized pin through it?

Would that take up the "void".

[Sam Thompson]

That void is pretty common on 'everyday' ironmongery. I don't think they bothered much unless the work was of particularly important.
The smaller pintles, like your second pic look like they were made from one piece.
What are these for?

[easilyconfused]

What if you bent the drawn out portion 90 deg before wrapping the roundstock into it? That way you'd be able to weld the whole way upto the edge on a straight line. Then bend back so it sits right. May wind up with the void still though. I agree that it looks like the originals have the voids.

[Mark Aspery]

I take Sam's position - the gap is common place - and for good reason.

When you weld a collar onto a bar (which in essence is what you are doing) there has to be a gap between the ends in order for the collar to close on the material and weld.


No gap, no weld!!!!

[Sam Thompson]

I've always thought that for true period authenticity there should be some really badly made repro as well as all the high quality conscientiously made stuff. There have always been bad workmen. There are pintles like that in every other gate-post and many of them were very poorly made, some of them centuries ago. The welds on these often look like they have been blown apart by frost...Maybe water gets into the void.
My house was built in 1709 and some of the hinges look as though they were reused. Only quality stuff survives but rubbish must have existed.

[John B]

Is the forge coal or gas ? In either case you will need a good long soak, voids are acceptable

[ThomasPowers]

Note too that the originals were made from real wrought iron which is much more soft and plastic at welding heat than modern steels.

I've seen the wedge suggestion used for wrapped axe/hatchet eyes before; but on gates I've seen more with the voild left alone.

[bruce wilcock]

made them by the bucket ,for the farmers ,nearly cut the pin off the bar ,get a welding heat on the bar you are making the spike from about where the eye will be ,and a welding heat on the pin ,weld the pin on the bar a couple of taps will do to stick it on ,wring the pin of and wrap the bar around the stuck on pin all in the one heat ,back in the fire take a weld heat and over the edge of the anvil close the eye flip it over and shut the other side if the eye with working around the eye you will close the joint, then back in the fire take a weld heat a little further down the shank of the spike and shut it up ,cut of turn it round and hold the eye with a pr of bolt tongs dont hold the pin ,it isnt in line to draw the point ,then back in the fire a full welding heat and weld up and draw out the point , the first blacksmiths competition i won ,that was the job 2 welded gate pins and welded straps time allowed 1 hour ,with a striker, the pins were 3/4 ins and the eye was 1x 1/2 shoe iron .i was 17 year old .it was a open class so i was working with men ,my boss pushed me in and told me just think you are back at the smithy ,dont look at the crowd just get on with it , at the time we were making them at chance between shoing and shoemaking. i still have that prize card ,the judge was G Ransom the Ransoms were great plough makers ,so it means a lot to me ,learn to make them well and smartly you will never forget and it is a good usefull thing to make as a demonsration peice.

[Jymm Hoffman]

Don,
Great drawings. I can not always get the gap to disappear, but frequently do with the following method: I add a step, after the shoulder and scarf, bend away from the shoulder and upset the corner a little. Then wrap back around, also helps to get the pin started on center. Do not close up completely, as welding a collar around a bar. I frequently make the welds diamond shape instead of round, as some of the originals. After you get a good weld, you can then knock the corners out (at a welding heat,) to make the part the hinge rides on round. Doing a batch of pintles this way now.

[Don A]

Many thanks to each of you.

Sometimes you just need some positive input to get back in the groove. Plain common sense is a good remedy for frustration.

I've got 22 of these to do. I have already done the hinges. I'll post some pics when the job is done.

I really appreciate it,

Don

By the way, I think I am going to take a cue from our bladesmithing brethren and test one of these "to destruction", just to see what kind of weld I am achieving.

I also went to the trouble of ordering 1018 for the pintles, instead of using hot-rolled.

Edited March 18, 2009 by Don A

[steveh]

Jerry Darnell has excellent videos on making strap hinges and pintles.He upsets the end on an angle of about 60 degrees then turns it over on the edge of the anvil right behind the upset then puts 2 vees in the stock.Then he puts the vees on the horn and hammers it concave,this is where the round stock is wrapped.The upset part has the material to fill the void.Weld together,take another welding heat and weld the bottom while in the vice.Another welding heat and using a header flatten where the hinge will sit,draw out the point.I hope I have explained it for others to understand,I got the video from Centaur Forge.The pintles end up looking like they were made from one piece.

[steveh]

I was wondering if any others have seen Jerry Darnells tapes or seen him demo his strap hinges or pintles.

[Alwin]

If I wanted to eliminate the V in the pintle, I would figure the circumference of the pin first. Then, I would take the steel I would use to wrap it and scarf the end. I would bend at a right angle maybe an inch back from the end of the scarf. From that bend I would measure back the circumference of the pin minus about 1/8 inch, and then make another right angle bend. If you hold the spike material up, both bends should cause the material to go in the same direction (it should look like an u with both ends pointing up. Next, I'd bend that center section into a loop. Basically I'd make a collar that was about 1/8 of an inch from closing all the way. That way as you weld it on the material stretches to the size that fits the pin exactly all the way around. Depending on how hard you hit when you weld you might need a little extra space, maybe up to 3/16 of an inch so that it fits exactly when welded.

[Matt in NY]

I have been checking the pintles I have hanging around as well as looking over the hinges.

Most have that wedge, the only one that dosen't appears to have been punched! All but one was in a diamond shape.

The hinges are interesting also. I have been looking at the welds here and there. I put a bunch of them together today and looked them over comparing them.

Some were very plain but very solid looking welds. Some had a fair amount of work in them but were not even welded! Some looked like they came from a jr high shop class; no weld and not even wrapped too tight. But, it probably did the job. Well it did since I took it off the door it was on. So much for only quality stuff surviving! This barn was from the 1700's

These hinges ranged from 6 inches to over 4 feet in length.

Something I never noticed before: all the top hinges, and pintles were larger than than the bottoms.

I have a set of double barn doors that have 4 different hinges!

I think that there must have been local variations in hinges etc as well as those that were a mark of a certain smith. Just because we see a picture of something from a certain time dosen't mean that was how they were all done. I know, I'm preaching to the choir.

Good luck with those pintles.

[archiphile]

What about after you have finish the wrap and the weld taking another heat, and, with the Pintle inside of the hole and place it into either a guillotine tool or a swage , or even a spring fuller, at the point of the void and smashing closed? Don't know if it will work. I just had the thought while I was staring at the drawings.

Edited March 26, 2009 by archiphile
More information and formating issues

[Don A]

Thanks again for all of this great advice.

I have about 15 done; 7 more to do. It is begining to become more of a predictable process.

A couple things I have learned, so far:

- Don't sweat the void / V-gap. All the original pics show 'em, and they don't effect function. I have been able to pinch 'em pretty tight simply by making my initial contact weld (where the wrap-around meets) between the radiused edge of the anvil and the radiused edge of my square-faced hammer.

- Next time, I will use 1/4 x 1/2" flat instead of drawing the 1/2x1/2" square (thanks, Bruce). I can see this as a great time saver.

- We've all heard this before, but, if you want to gain a lot of confidence in your forge welding, do a lot of forge welding. These things are requiring me to take at least 3 welding heats each, sometimes 4 or 5. I should eventually shave that down to a couple, but I still waste a lotta heat when I'm out of the fire... getting better all the time, but still a little too slow. Anyhow, I can actually relax while I watch the heat come up and see the subtle changes at the point where the flux goes liquid and the yellow brightens and begins to get that "weld me" glow to it.
Relaxed instead of frustrated... that's what we're shooting for.

Something I never noticed before: all the top hinges, and pintles were larger than than the bottoms.

Now that is interesting.


I appreciate it,

Don Edited March 26, 2009 by Don A

[blksmth]

Attached is a drawing that I believe was the result of watching Peter Ross make a pintle. I'm not sure where the drawing came from, but I think it was from the Northwest Blacksmith Association. Note the indentation made in the 1/2" square bar over the small end of a round anvil horn. Also, note the cut in the pin stock which allows the pintle to be broken from the pin bar stock after welding.

[Don A]

blksmth,

Thanks for that.

The only difference between the P. Ross method and the way I have been doing it is where he sets up that flat spot on the end and then goes octagon to round on his weld. I can definitely see the advantage to that.

I managed to figure out the merit of leaving the pin stock slightly proud on the bottom, and then welding it into the mass of the pintle over the pritchel hole. My pritchels are slightly off size, so I made myself a 1/2" bolster plate for this step.