Fe-Wood Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 Something about Bellew's question on the merits of cutting a gas tank vs. fixing a 55 Gl drum really got to me. He asked a good question and got some really good advice for and against the merits of such an indeaver. The part that got me was the with-holding of information on how to SAFELY do this. As blacksmiths and people that work with our hands and minds, questions of this sort will always come up. I don't find it wise to with-hold information that can make someone's project more safe or successful. If they are committed and serious about doing what they are questioning, no level of discouragement is going to stop them. It is their choice, hopefully armed with the best information they can get. I think as a society, we rely on the warnings of others to avoid taking personal responsibility for our own actions cause and effect. The reason I like this forum more than the others I belong to is the commitment to sharing information, ideas and hopefully good safety tips. One persons way of doing and or explaining how to do things is rarely complete. Personal circumstances are always different, tools, skill level, experience, etc. If everyone shares their experience and their understanding of the risks involved and ways to offset that risk, I think the questioner would be able to decide weather or not to continue with that project. Thats why I believe forums like this are so important. One can ask a question and get answers from a broad spectrum of experiences. I think there is a basic assumption that someone who asks the question is smart and aware enough of their personal limitations and experience to judge whether or not they should undertake a particular task. I mean, just about everything discussed on this forum carries some risk to body and property. All we can do is hope to educate and get educated in the process. Any comments? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 (edited) I understand your point and to a degree agree. However you seem to miss the point. There is NO safe way to cut and or weld a fuel tank. About 15 years ago a professional welding shop specializing in fuel tanks spent 5 days steaming one after several detergent washdowns and flushes. Half a second after the first arc was struck the shop was laying flat like a house of cards. One dead and 5-6 hospitalized. In spite of KNOWING what they were doing, having the proper equipment to do it with and doing it to exceed OSHA standards. I will NOT and never will describe how to do something that is life threateningly dangerous no matter how careful you are. An extreme example would be giving advice on how to juggle nitro glycerine. Take all the precautions you want, if you do it enough times it will go bad. There is only ONE good piece of advice in answer to the specific question. Don't. Frosty Edited March 15, 2009 by Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 (edited) An example is when a person asks me (a union electrician) how to hook up high voltage, I have worked with 327,00 volt lines powering a steel mill. If i refuse to tell them how I am selfish and not helpful? and since they think they know more than I do anyway I have to tell them how I do it. So I tell them, BUT because they refused to listen to my best advice, and get themself killed, as WILL happen, because they didn't listen to me when I told them not to, most likely wont listen to any other instructions either. How long before my house belongs to some lawyer for suing me, because I got someone killed ? At least as a "selfish unsharing" electrician I can sleep well at night. now I have not had blacksmiths ask me about 327,000 volts, BUT I do get a lot asking me about 120 volts, with NO clue about the reasons behind the codes. It really IS the same thing. Edited March 15, 2009 by steve sells Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unkle spike Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 It never is good practice to use a flame or friction cutting on any container of any type that contained flammables. The risk is just too great. How many people get killed every year by guns that were "unloaded"? And starting a coal forge with accellerant, be it gasoline or kerosene, it runs down the air pipe, and if it fails to ignite fully as soon as you hit the fan you have a Jet Engine. The only difference between kerosene and JP4 jet fuel is the jet fuel is filtered more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tech413 Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 I agree with the above several statements! I have welded (diesel) fuel tanks at work many times without any problems. I don't like to do it, but I have to. But like Frosty said, there was a welder near me that was my friend's Grandfather. He had welded hundreds of fuel tanks and one day one went "BOOM" and he was in the hospital for 6 months. He barely survived. I also would not try to describe how to do something that could potentially kill someone as I wouldn't want the legal or moral responsibility. Adam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe-Wood Posted March 16, 2009 Author Share Posted March 16, 2009 OK, I see your collective points. I guess my point is that you can't prevent someone from doing something by with-hold information if they have their hart set on it. You can only help them understand the risks. Here is an everyday example; Guy askes me how to cross the street. What do I say? Don't cross, its to dangeriuos? Cars wizzing by. He REALLY wants to be on the otherside of the street and is being persistant. Do I suggest he look at oncoming traffic, or to maybe try judging how far cars are progressing in relation to how long it will take him to get across the street? Or do I tell him to go to a cross walk and wait for the light? Just for the sake of argument, what if the guy tried to wire the 32700 volts or the other guy tried to cut the tank, and they were killed. Would you feel good because you told them not too or bad because you might have been able to save them by giving them the proper information and in doing so clearly explained the risks by example so they could truly understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 Life is dangerous enough on a daily basis. Well trained and certified experts get killed. Others feel a 6 pack of liquid courage and "Hey y'all, watch this" is all they need to be protected. Providing a warning that it is dangerous to cut into a fuel tank is expected. Providing detailed information is not expected or required. Cutting open a fuel tank is not something that has to be done, there are many other options for building a forge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 In blacksmithing/bladesmithing/welding there are a bunch of stuff that really comes down to: "if you have to ask this question; you are *NOT* ready to profit from the answer and most likely will mess up you or your equipment or both!" I would suggest you talk with a lawyer over the difference between the situation you mention and the original one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 (edited) OK, Just for the sake of argument, what if the guy tried to wire the 32700 volts or the other guy tried to cut the tank, and they were killed. Would you feel good because you told them not too or bad because you might have been able to save them by giving them the proper information and in doing so clearly explained the risks by example so they could truly understand. If I told him not to do it but to hire an expert, if he is fool enough to do it himself, then it cleans out the gene pool. People don't understand it takes 4 to 5 years apprenticeship to get journeymen, then another 4 years to get master Electrician, but they think they can learn enough in a few minutes to do it Fuel tank welding is the same thing. I have sees experts have to do this in factories, but they don't like it anymore than I like to climb a, electrical power pole in a storm. Where do people get the idea they can do it with just a few tips. OR think I have to tell them anything? While I am on a rant, why cant Kids listen to adults warnings? Edited March 16, 2009 by steve sells typo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 Do you really believe giving someone directions on crossing a street is analogous to the current discussion? If I tell you don't weld or cut on a fuel tank and you do it anyway? I'll feel bad for you very badly for your loved ones but I won't lose any sleep over it. Not a bit. If on the other hand I were to try and write down each and every step, procedure and test method necessary to cut or weld a fuel tank and then you killed yourself I would be guilty of encouraging you to do something potentially deadly without the knowledge, expertise nor judgment necessary. If not legally guilty then morally, and legal or not won't stop the relatives from suing me to ruin. I hear your argument every time somebody hears you can weld with thermite and asks if it'd be a good idea to use thermite to get their forge to welding heat and I won't tell them how to mix up a batch and light it. The original question was a good and wise question, to paraphrase, `is X a good idea or not?' The consensus from folk who have done that particular job is NO, it's a job for a properly trained, experienced and equipped shop. The folk who don't know anything about it are guessing at what might work. The person who posed the question for some odd reason took the advice of folk who know what they're talking about and is doing something else. Why don't you call a welding shop and ask them how to cut or weld a fuel tank? What do you think they'll tell you? Try your current argument on them and they'll not only hang up on you, they might block your phone #. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Frosty your point is right on the mark and very well put. The only thing I could add is there are 2 types of people in America, those who have been sued and those who are about to be. We can't make things idiot proof but we have to try. If you tell someone how to do something and they omit a step and hurt themselves you will get sued. That is why we have warnings on CD racks that say "not to be used as a ladder" and on CD back packs that say "not to be used as a flotation device" These warnings aren't there because somebody might misuse the product some day, they are there because somebody already has. This tank cutting thing rears it's ugly head every few months, perhaps we need a sticky about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe-Wood Posted March 17, 2009 Author Share Posted March 17, 2009 Ok, Ok, I'm not trying to xxxx anyone off or personaly attack anyone. Actually I have no need or interest at this time to cut or weld a used fuel tank. And yes I have done it in the past without incident, the pucker factor was quite high too... My use of the street crossing analogy was to bring to light the simple dangers surounding all that we do. My main point was and is the shearing of information and how important it is. I see from all the good perspectives raised by all replies (sharing of information) that safety and what is safe for one is not safe for the other. When I read the question, I came to it from MY experiance perspective, not that of total ignorance of the potential dangers. It just ercks me when people with-hold information that can help a project go smothly, it alway has. I was the kid standing on the sidelines asking the questions, still am, although not a kid anymore. One thing I do know however, I know what my personal limitations are and I don't need a six pack of liquid currage to help me over the rough spots. I go more for the refreshing aspect. By the way, Frosty, How do you make thermite? I want use it for forge welding... Good Idea? Sorry, couldn't resist. There's more I could say about the expansion of knowlage and a chalange etc. but I get it on this topic. Something along the lines of " if you don't know how to ask the question, maybe you shouldn't try". Thanks Guys- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 It is discussions like this that explain the reasoning behind the need to ask more questions. We all have different strengths, different knowledge bases, and different life experiences. Fortunately we can ask questions and receive answers from the collective pool of knowledge. The answers may not be what you want, but the answers are, in most cases, proper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Thermite's easy, find an old sourdough who's thermals are filled with mites and light him/er on fire. Just don't be standing in front of him/er when s/he catches, thermites will go through anything. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe-Wood Posted March 17, 2009 Author Share Posted March 17, 2009 Must be really hard to get them (thermites) in possition for welding.... Glen, so true!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Much of common law has/had! a "reasonable person" basis where things a "reasonable person" should be aware of are not a problem but as soon as you get out of the normal rut you assume great liability. "Reasonable people" don't know much about welding, electricity, blacksmithing, etc. We're all Unreasonable people I guess... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Must be really hard to get them (thermites) in possition for welding.... You should smell the flux! Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Much of common law has/had! a "reasonable person" basis where things a "reasonable person" should be aware of are not a problem but as soon as you get out of the normal rut you assume great liability. "Reasonable people" don't know much about welding, electricity, blacksmithing, etc. We're all Unreasonable people I guess... Exactly. "Reasonable and Prudent" and "Due Dillegence" are two of the most common terms that come to the fore in liability suits. Here's to being in the company of unreasonable people! We should come up with a properly presumptuous sounding name for this society of unreasonable people of ours. Hmmmmm. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 League of Unreasonable Gentlemen/women...Hmmm nope "L.U.G wench" would be too easy for folks with low minds... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Glorious League of Unreasonable Gentlefolk . . . GLUG? I do like LUG wench though. Easy is not always a bad thing. Low minds are not always a bad thing either. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 G.L.U.G---I'll drink to that! Having a low mind means I get hurt less when I fall into the gutter.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe-Wood Posted March 19, 2009 Author Share Posted March 19, 2009 So, would non conventional be compairable to unreasonable? I've always felt staying within convention is a simple place to hide and not for me! G.L.U.G-G.L.U.G.!! Heres a funny story- I was talking to the 20 something year old daughter of a friend of mine about driving on the snowy roads from our last storms. She had a problem staying on the road because it was slippery. She said it wasn't her falt she slid off into the ditch. I asked who's falt it was....The roads!!!! she said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe-Wood Posted March 20, 2009 Author Share Posted March 20, 2009 The best fo both worlds, don't try this at home...or ever!YouTube - Thermite Experiment Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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