Alan Evans

That is good news and progress. On a flight from New York to Baltimore (where I was picked up by Bill Gichner and we drove to the Saint Louis ABANA conference) I sat next to a guy to whom I had trotted out my favourite Oscar Wilde quote about being divided by a common language he said ... to an Englishman a 100 miles is a long way... and to an American a 100 years is a long time! This was compounded at the conference when I met Fred Borcherdt who had driven up to the conference with Tom Joyce. When I asked how far apart they lived, Fred said "A day and a bit"...I was most impressed, having been expecting a reply along the lines of 40 miles! I agree, International Fora like this one where we gain new insights about others' outlook on the world can only help to reduce our various ignorances and blindspots. Alan

It was not lost on me but I thought my post was convoluted enough. Sweet irony! Your brain seems to be working even better than before! Alan

Glen, given the strong reaction my comment provoked from SLAG, would you care to edit my post to ensure that it does not offend anybody else in the future? One could make it strictly factual and read something along the lines of:- Oh and just a word on words...I just happened to notice the original documentation referred to them (in English) as a river defence...rather than a river defense. Guess it took some time before the US English spelling was adopted. Alternatively, retaining some attempt at humour but less cheeky than the original, being more positive and accurate, given that for most people in the world the US English spelling is correct:- Oh and just a word on words...I just happened to notice the original documentation referred to them (in English) as a river defence...rather than a river defense. Guess it took some time for you colonials to learn how to spell. I always assumed that the US English dictionary spellings were a rationalisation and simplification, based on phonetics in order to remove the weird anomalies in English spelling. All the usual suspects I can think of conform to that, but it would be interesting to know if there was any other reason. I am so glad in this instance I did not compound the error and include the old joke / wordplay / innuendo / double entendre about "Revolting Colonists". Though it might have made my comment more obviously a joke. I know that the British sense of humour (humor!) which is sometimes self deprecatory and often makes use of irony is reported to be a puzzle to many in the US, but I am genuinely mortified that anybody on IFI would be upset by my contributions. It has been preying on me a bit. As far as the War of Independence goes my knowledge of its history is poor. Until this thread I was not aware of the Hudson river chains. I dare say our educators preferred to concentrate on the conflicts where the UK prevailed rather than failed. The most significant thing about the Revolution from my childhood was that I was brought up and educated a Quaker. My school received a lot of money from the great quaker companies like Fry and Cadbury. You will probably be aware that they were formerly iron founders who refused to make armaments for the UK government to use against the American Colonists and so diversified into the confectionary industries where their products could not be used against their fellow man. Alan

http://www.hudsonrivervalley.org/library/pdfs/articles_books_essays/popolopen.pdf http://www.hudsonrivervalley.org/review/pdfs/hvrr_7pt1_diamant.pdf The fuller account of the chains afterlife is in The Saga of Hudson's River Great Chains by Edmee J. Hills which is in google books. As far as I read it was 2 or 3 hundred squaddies who were given the task of deploying and removing the chains...and they evidently did not much like the job. so whether it was just manpower or horses, cranes and manpower I have not found. When the logs had been in the water some time they lost buoyancy but presumably they could let it go in the middle and let the two ends float with the current to the banks then haul ashore...various estimates of weight but 50 or 60 tonnes was one. A swivel link every 1,000 lbs. C'mon I have already done the leg and post joke...nice twist with the Columbian though Alan

It might help explain where my attempt at humour was coming from...you might care to check out the July 4. song "**** you England" on the college humour youtube channel for a recent (rather coarser) example of the way the "special relationship" and national characteristics of the UK and US are lampooned (and celebrated). This thread is based on an historical object from the few years that our countries were not on the same side; and although I feel I have more in common with other blacksmiths irrespective of their nationality...I like to think of myself as primarily a citizen of the Nation of Blacksmiths...my poor joke was in part in reference to the thread theme. Having been at war 200 + years ago, we can be happy the there have been many more years of peace and cooperation. One of the minor existing differences is alternative spellings of a few words, which I am afraid I do find a source of mild amusement. Alan

This is too serious a post for leg pulling... Alan

I am sorry my comment was offensive to you. The intention was one of continuing the joshing common to this forum, and was intended as a mildly ironic reference to the relationship and well known differences between the spelling in the English language and that of US English. Not better or worse, just different. Oscar Wilde referred to the English and US citizens as a similar people divided buy a common language, and there are a number of humorous songs which are in the same vein. It was certainly not intended to be taken seriously, hence the smiley face. My apologies to yourself and any others who were offended. Alan

Frank-ly...I don't know... Alan PS Get the picture?

I found a fascinating book online about what became of the Hudson river chains, there were a number of them and yes, it looks like they were bespoke. They were only in place for a few years. There are a number of letters concerning their storage, preservation and disposal. Various reports of the British cutting one and carrying some of it away and letting the rest sink, and someone grappling in order to salvage a length. Various reports as to the weight of the chain links from 40lbs to 400lbs each. The repro ones in the first photo, if they are 2' long and from 2" square would be around 80lbs. The rumour that they had just let the chains sink when decommissioned, because they were too heavy to bring ashore, was rubbished because of there raw material values, and that they were regularly brought in during the winter months. Oh and just a word on words...I just happened to notice the original documentation referred to them (in English) as a river defence...rather than a river defense. Guess it took some time for you colonials to forget how to spell. Thank you for the photos Elmoleaf I have enjoyed the diversion and learning something new. Alan

Like a lot of historical facts it depends who is writing the history....the people eating the deer were not frowning! Alan

Yes well, it does not want to get much above 4˚C. Certainly not above 7˚ C 'cos the bugs really get going then. Alan

I have just taken delivery of a Tenderum. It arrived yesterday in the post, it was on half price offer. It is a little electronic calculator which averages temperature and time to monitor a deer carcass to tenderise the meat. Based on forty degree days. I.e. Forty days at 1 degree C, ten days at 4 degrees C and etc. Which curiously links the last few posts together. Alan

It is interesting that even a century ago the Practical Blacksmith contributors were more keen to demonstrate and share a "better way" than they were on keeping trade secrets. Over here other disciplines tried to emulate the ABANA / BABA model in the 80s and 90s but just could not get over their rivalries enough to share and make it work. Ceramics and glass spring to mind. I always loved the idea that you could each go to a gathering with your one new idea/process share it and come back with twenty more. Alan

When I was looking for my Weygers and Andrews books, I did find a few volumes of Practical Blacksmithing that I had picked up in Hay on Wye a few decades ago. Good fun read...and as you say, solid gold, plus bickering! Alan

Interesting link.... Blimey some monopoly...if Brown Lennox made all the chain for the navy for over a hundred years. Alan

My grandfather, and later for a short while my father were both organisers for the forerunner of COSIRA the RIB Rural Industries Bureau in the early fifties when the books were done...so I was brought up to be a bit snooty about the Johnny-come-lately COSIRA that put its name to the RIB products! I do take both of your points about the different nature of the Weygers book...I just can't get the image of sharpening a gouge on a rubber wheel out of my mind even after 40 odd years. And it is true, I was earning my living as a blacksmith and so coming at it from a relatively main stream/professional point of view. Alan

Sorry to be so negative about a significant historical memorial! I don't know anything about the history but I would not be at all surprised if they hadn't strung a load of old anchor chains across rather than making a bespoke chain. I guess it depends how much time they had to set it up...needs must when the enemy is on its way. Anchor chains would have caused enough delay to the boats and done the job. Presumably the idea was bringing them under fire while they tried to cut through. Is there any documentary evidence that it was anything other than an expedient measure? Alan

Frosty: I guess it is all relative...I was trying to point to a progression of "good", "okay", and "awful" in the books I know. The Weygers book is my least favourite. I did learn stuff from the Weygers book, it is not totally without merit...but I also remember some awful suggestions in it which made me distrust his advice. It is one of the first blacksmithing books I acquired back in the seventies after the RIB books and it didn't really match up to them. I just had a look for it and the Jack Andrews book in order to refresh my memory of them, but couldn't find them so I guess they are out on non-return loan Alan

The "advantage" of a straight pein is if you have a use for it....I would not confuse the difference between it being a useful hammer... and it being more or less useful than a cross pein. In some instances it will be more useful in others less, like any tool, just depends what you are making. Alan

One of the other blacksmithing books that Hereford college has available for download is the Lillico book...that is the bible for power hammer work...well it was for me. All of the old RIB publications were good, not just the blacksmithing ones. A grand resource. Alan

Probably the case...but you did have professional smithing shops going before during and after Mr Bealer's revelation. Yellin had a continuum for instance. Though it is not unknown for those that commission such things to be horribly ignorant of the area over which they profess expertise and hold sway. Alan PS even the anchor fixing staple thingy is totally unsympathetic...

Great post John, I thoroughly agree. Working with or even just watching an experienced smith demonstrating and describing what he is doing and being able to see the end result is best. The CoSIRA books (formerly known as RIB, Rural Industry Bureau!) books were great. Books describing the work of time served and experienced smiths and trainers in the traditional best-practice techniques they were doing. The ideal would be a book by an amateur writer...written by a professional blacksmith rather than the other way around. I met Jack Andrews on a number of occasions, good bloke, I have a signed copy of his book somewhere. It is a well written and illustrated book. But he but would fall into the category of amateur blacksmith writing for amateur blacksmiths despite his association with the Yellin shop. I think The Edge of the Anvil was largely a collection of the knowledge available amongst the largely self-taught members of the fledgling ABANA. It is far better than the awful Weygers book, even so. But even when you have excellent books written by a professional smith and educator like Peter Parkinson there can still be slip ups and typos. He described the geometry of my punch and drift system incorrectly in the first edition of his book "Forged Architectural Metalwork" for instance. "The Artist Blacksmith" is his beginners / technical book which I can also thoroughly recommend. YouTube has so many vanity projects by inexperienced people that it takes for ever to find useful information. If you can find film of professional established smiths like Toby Hickman for instance you will be reliably and well informed. Alan

As a starter weld a simple fold on the end of a bar is probably the quickest to prepare and therefore you get to do more of them and get more practice at gauging the heat and pressure required. I would be inclined to use a bit of 10 or 12mm (3/8" or 1/2") square for this. It gives you a bit of tolerance or leeway with the heat. I have always found thin metal more difficult to fire weld and would think 1/8" was definitely not a good size to learn with. But SReynolds' students evidently manage. Another easy weld is the scarf joint on a chain link. Easy for the beginner because like the fold over they do not have the added complication of bringing the two elements together in a hurry. They are self aligning. Also making a couple of links and then joining them together with a third is great psychological boost with a piece graphically displaying the properties of the material. 6 or 10mm (1/4" or 3/8" ) round or square are easy sizes for a beginner to manipulate and have a bit of meat which can tolerate a bit of overheating. Alan

The disadvantage of drilling holes and then using a chisel is that you are left with a series of folds and potential crack starting points on the side walls of the hole. If you use a flat bottom punch and take it most of the way through, flip the bar and punch out the slug while it is still chilled from contact with the face of the anvil it will sheer clean. You can even splash a bit of water on the slug area if you can't get to it while it is still chilled. If you are drilling because you are worried that you will not keep the hole in the centre line of the bar, learn the technique of quenching the thin side while you are drifting. The hot side does all the stretching then and centres the hole. Holes are best done by hand at or near welding heat. Providing your hole is the same size or smaller than the width of the parent bar you can use a single tool punch and drift, the length of the slot being the same as the final diameter/length of the hole. If the hole you want to make is larger than the parent bar width you will need a slot punch longer than final hole size in order to prevent stretching and weakening the sides too much. Alan

At 1500˚ C you would be having a show perhaps. Alan