CaptainSpaulding

Ian, that is actually not a bad idea. Thanks. Thanks, WhiteHot I'll look into that guy.

Hey everyone... I've been playing around doing some backyard smithing for a few months now and I've found a nice little niche market selling decorative hooks (mounted or 'loose) and racks and such, and I came across a place in Toronto who makes what is called "live edge lumber" which is vertically sliced and kiln-dried sheets of wood from huge trees. Long story short, we got talking one day and he asked if I could do anything that would compliment their stuff, we went back and forth with a few ideas and then nothing came of it. Fast forward 3 months to today, a woman called me who had just bought a large piece from him - about 6' x 3' and 2" thick, to be used as a coffee table. She saw my rail spike hooks at their shop and thought that a scaled up version (like, really really really scaled up) of rail spike hooks would look great as table legs (I happen to agree with her), so that the head of the spike would be the foot and the underside of the table would rest on the curved part of the hook, with the "point" of the hook pointing down to the floor, and they'd be turned inwards, towards the middle of the table. I can't really come up with anything do-able with the tools and materials I have, and even if I were to buy materials (I was leaning towards using 4" square tubing), I still don't have the tools (large scale forge, heavy table and jigs, etc.) needed to work with stock that big, let alone having the experience to do it. I'm sure I'd put all kinds of kinks into the tubes...so I'm about to gracefully back out of this opportunity. She also asked me if I knew of anybody who could do this kind of thing. So, if this kind of thing is allowed here, I was wondering if someone here knows of anyone in the Toronto Area who a) could possibly re-create a rail spike into a larger version, or b) work with this lady to create something that will make her happy. She wants HEAVY, rough, industrial looking legs and she said everything she saw online looked to clean or "polished" and she wasn't referring to finishes. I'm sorry if I'm breaking any rules or posting this in the wrong place, and I didn't just want to tell her to use google to find a metal works place in the city. I think that's a rude way to deal with someone who is asking for help. I'm not looking for anything whatsoever in return, but you have all been very helpful to me so I figured I'd return the favour by offering up an opportunity to someone here.

If the cost of an anvil is intimidating or out of reach for now and you really need something to bang on, I'd recommend looking into a die block. Call some local tool and die makers and ask them if they have any blocks laying around that they don't need/use anymore. I got 2 blocks that weigh just shy of 75 lb each for $15 each just by walking into a tool shop, introducing myself to the owner and telling him I'm starting a blacksmithing hobby and I need something to hit on. He had three large chucks (about 12" in diameter and 3" thick) and 2 blocks just sitting all shiny-like in the corner, coated in oil, waiting to be used for something. If you were closer I'd give you one but the cost of shipping one across the continent would be somewhat prohibitive, putting you back at square one.

Aw, c'mon, it's not that bad.

Thomas I actually do have an angle grinder but I was under the impression that I needed a 10" chop saw or something. What I have is "1 36" rail which I understand means it's 136 lbs per yard and is one of the biggest types. Is that vastly different than trolley rail? Either way, thanks...this is good to know.

I believe you when you say that it does, but I still don't understand why it does.

Pardon my ignorance but could someone please explain why a swayed anvil is better for straightening?

Thanks guys, those are great ideas but unfortunately I do not have tools (or access to them) that will cut through a section of rail. I guess using the underside as a chisel/cutting table is the way I'll have to go for now. At least it'll be intact in the event that I do get something that can cut through it.

dcraven, those openers look great. Sorry to hijack the thread but since it's on topic I assume it's preferred over starting another thread. Anyway, I was wondering if there were any OTHER uses for rail besides as a striking/cutting tool? I used the TPAATAPPTA method and ended up with a friend getting me a piece of rail after I didn't need it anymore. I couldn't bring myself to say no but at this point I really don't need it. I'd be glad to pass it along for what it cost me (case of beer) to someone who needs it as well but it's so nice looking I'd really like to do something with it either as a showpiece or as a tool

I lucked into exactly what you're looking for by walking into a local tool and die shop and talking to the owner about what I was looking for. He had two 75 lb die blocks (with holes in them) sitting on the floor and he sold me both for $30 because they were just in his way. I have an anvil now and I'd gladly part with one of the two blocks that I have but I can't imagine it being very economical getting it down to VA.

Nut, the "plain" was based on the assumption that I was going to have to taper them into more of a nail shape so they would go into the wood easier but not add any decorative flair to them so that when they were installed they would appear to be in their original condition. Now that I've decided not to taper them, yes, you are correct, heat, wire brush and coat. I was planning to adjust my fees accordingly. There is, however, another set that he wants that will be bent about 2" below the head so that the shank sits flush on the wall and the head protrudes out and acts as the hook (they will be hung upside down). So I'd have to bend them and either drill or punch two holes in each of them (10 total) which is where the actual forging comes into play. Those are the ones that will actually cost him a few bucks. So $100 for the "plain" ones and then around $200 for the forged ones is now what I'm thinking. Maybe my initial question wasn't worded just right. What I was trying to get across was that based on my lack of experience and the fact that me taking 90 minutes to do something that someone else could do in 30 makes it unfair for me to charge him for the full 90 minutes. I was trying to figure out what a fair price would be for the actual product based on the time it would take someone experienced to do it, and not my actual time because at $40/hour, 2/3 of the cost is going to be simply due to my lack of effiency and skill. I appreciate the fact that my time is still valuable and that it's fair to charge a little for my learning curve but not "full rate" - epecially from a friend. Does that make any more sense or have I made it even worse now?

Hey Billy, that's exactly why I asked. Although it's easy to just sit back and say I'll charge what I want because I enjoy doing this and I'm not a professional, and I don't expect to make a lot of money because I'm not a professional, I also totally understand that this has a very real impact on the people who actually rely on this trade to make a living. All I want to do is price my stuff fairly and competitively so that I don't end up being one of those people who gives buyers the mindset that they can get stuff for 80% less than the going rate, forcing the SOBs to either drop their prices or just not sell their work. It's really no different than selling your house. If all the houses on my street are selling for $300K and I decide to sell my house for $200K even though it's worth $300K, all I've done is lower the value of every other house on my street - and anger all my neighbours. Using that same analogy, in the case of the spikes, I just have no idea how much my "house" is actually worth.

Wow, thanks for the great advice everyone. It sounds very counterintuitive to NOT taper the ends but the explanation I initially read along with what you are all saying about the taper actually spitting the wood and the square-ish point shearing its way through the wood makes sense. I'd never heard of lubricating the spike so I'll make sure he does that too. The spikes are being nailed into cross beams that are suspended over the openings to stalls similar to those in a stable but much smaller. They will be about 4' apart which means I don't think I have to worry too much about 2 spikes spitting through the same grain. I can't do the installation myself because the location is about 3 hours from the city (cottage) so I may just have to write out an installation guide for him and insist that he try a couple in some scrap to see what works best and also insist that he take into account the direction of the grain prior to banging these things in, i.e. make sure the wood he tests is going the same way as the way it's installed. Either way, I think pre-drilling is the way to go. George, I like the idea of adding a bit of flair to them. He said he wanted them plain but I showed him a simple S hook that I made with a single twist for a separate project and he loved it. Once he sees it on a spike I think he might change his mind about wanting them plain. Bigfoot, once again it seems counterintuitive to drill a hole bigger than the size of the spike but since I'm not an expert I'm in no position to argue with you...but could you explain why? Wont the arcs of the round hole be visible against the flat sides of the spike? I would think that would look bad. The spikes are 5/8" so what size hole would you recommend? Initially I was going to go with a 1/2" hole so there was still enough meat for the spike to hold on to. Should I use a 5/8" hole too or even bigger?

Thanks Ridgeway...I wholeheartedly agree but the problem is that they're selling on ebay for about $8 each and there's another blacksmith selling them online for $75 each. I agree with you that I should charge what is right and of course I want to make this profitable but with such a huge variance in pricing, what is "right?" I don't want to undercut the entire field but I also don't want to scare him away with something outrageous. I guess at $40/hour x 2 per hour = $20 each x 20 pieces = $400... I like that a lot more than $150. If he reduces his order that just means I don't have to spend as much time working for him. If demand for my work increases I have no problem upping that number. I guess calculating it as an hourly charge and not a "per item" charge is a much smarter way of doing it.

So I've been hammering away getting a little better every weekend and after "showing off" some of my most recent work to a few people at my real job, my hobby has now presented me with an opportunity to make a few bucks for a small project. A co-worker has asked me if I could get him some rail spikes (I have a source for LEGITIMATELY FREE spikes through a few friends at the TTC and CN Rail in Toronto) because he wants to put them in some poplar 4x4 beams and use them as hooks in his basement and I have a few questions. He wants to hammer them straight into the beams with as little modification to the spikes as possible. I'm afraid he might split the beams if they're not tapered at all and I'd hate to see him damage the wood like that. Does anyone have any experience with hammering them straight into a small beam like that? Will his lumber be safe? He wants as much of the 'shaft' as possible left visible while still being able to actually hang things from them (say up to 10 lbs) so I was thinking of not cutting them at all and just putting a small taper at the end so it goes in easier. I remember reading somewhere that in general, square works better than round but I don't remember the source so I don't remember how much credence I should give to that statement. Would he just be better off pre drilling some holes that are a little smaller than the shaft of the spike and then just banging them in there? He also wants a few bent at about 60 deg. so he can mount them flush on the wall and use the head as the hanger/hook so all I would need to do for those would be to bend them at the bottom 1/3 and punch/drill 2 holes in the shaft part. He also wants them all "finished" so I have to wire brush them and then put some kind of coating on them. Considering that my materials are free and my "time" isn't as efficient as a professional, I have no idea what to charge him. He says he wants about 10 each. Would $7.50 each ($150 total) be reasonable? Is that too much or too little? Thanks!

Being an absolute beginner but also being a perfectionist of sorts in other aspects of my life, just this weekend I quickly turned what was turning into quite a nice looking leaf for a key ring into a flux spoon because "just one more heat and a little more attention RIGHT THERE" will make it perfect. Now, the error was 100% due to lack of experience (left the leaf in the fire WAY too long for how thin it was) so next time I should get it right. On the plus side, I now know what the sparks, sizzling sound and blistering means. As long as you're aware of your strengths and weaknesses, good enough may very well be as perfect as you can get. As someone else already mentioned, as long as that's a moving target and your next piece is better than your last, you know you're moving in the right direction.

Wow, although that is very impressive, it looks like a lot more work than I am prepared for. This is a hobby for me and I think my question was misunderstood...I was just thinking of having my buddy shave off 1/8 or 1/16 of an inch across the entire face just to take down all the high spots and reduce the depth of the divots. At this stage of my smithing all I'm making are hooks, bottle openers and candle holders - all using 1/2 inch stock or smaller. My issue is that all those markings on the face are imprinting on my materials and I'd like to reduce it a little. I can live with the missing heel for now because I have no immediate use for a hardy (nor do I even have any). If this hobby progresses further than just a few hours on weekends I'll most likely just get a brand new anvil because the search for good used ones is so frustrating and at some point I'd like to see exactly how a nice anvil is supposed to behave (nicely dressed edges, nice rebound, smooth surfaces, everything where it's supposed to be, etc.) My anvil is also cracked so anything more than a quick clean-up on the face probably doesn't warrant the time, energy or cost.

Yep: http://www.iforgeiron.com/index.php?app=core&module=search&do=user_activity&search_app=gallery&mid=28685&userMode=all&sid=ec4587d13c4e6ca2057363f568399ecb

judson, assuming that's what I have does that mean the face can be ground or milled flat or is there still a hardness issue? I have access to a tool maker, a huge fire and a very large body of water if it needs to be re-hardened.

Speaking of "anvil parts" or whatever we're calling it now, is there such a thing as a one piece anvil - in that there's no actual separate piece of steel (as in the face) attached to the body of the anvil? I don't know if mine is gone altogether or what but the heel is broken off of my anvil so I did some investigative grinding, sanding and filing and I don't see a difference in materials anywhere within 3/4 of an inch. Is it just that they're welded on so well that they just appear as one piece?

I live in Toronto and I found myself in a situation similar to yours. The best piece of advice I got from the fine people here at IFI was to find metal dealers in the area and just walk in and introduce myself as a blacksmith and ask them if they have any material that they can't sell to their "regular" customers. There's a place here who sells steel in all shapes and sizes to all kinds of customers - from plumbing supply stores to tool and die makers, but the buyers expect clean, straight material. If anything has started to rust or is bent or twisted in any way they discard it (throw it in a pile behind the warehouse) along with end cuts and mis-measured cuts. I don't know if I really got a deal or not (I think I did) but just last week I got 3 feet of 3" black pipe, 8 feet of 1" angle, 12 feet of 1/2" square and about 20 feet of 1/2" x 1/4" all for $25. They even cut it into 3 foot lengths for me so I could fit it all into my little Toyota. I didn't even know that place existed until I walked into a plumbing shop and asked if they had any waste they wanted to get rid of. I suspect they have "a guy" because they were hesitant to even answer me but they did suggest this other place right away. I also once walked into a tool maker's shop and started talking to the guys in there and they suggested some other great locations too. One guy mentioned tool auctions, where old shops go out of business or retire and they have 5 - 55 years worth of accumulated stuff. If nothing else, getting into smithing has taught me to build my social skills and become a lot more resourseful. The other thing I've started doing is to search for flea/antique markets in the area but rather than spend all weekend driving around the province looking for this and that I just call them up and explain exactly what you said. If they don't sell what you're looking for ask them if they know someone who deals with that stuff. You'll strike out 99% of the time but when you make contact, it's usually a home run. Someone always knows someone who knows someone. While you're working on getting specifically what you're looking for, you may come across equally important materials that you don't even know you need yet. Good luck!

Haha thanks John B. Point taken. Maybe "proper" was a poor choice of words...now that I think about it, what I really meant was "suitable" or "effective" but from the rest of your post, it appears that it is. I just don't want to waste my time on fruitless missions when I could just pay a little more and buy the right tool and spend the extra time actually forging, you know what I mean?

Well I do have 30 lbs of lump charcoal chilling in my trunk right now, thinking about making tongs. It was a tough go trying to hold the metal still with those stupid pliers and hitting with a square hammer definitely made things a little harder too. I could see the material smushing in directions I didn't want it to go and when I tried to tilt the hammer all I did was put a sharp dent in the steel. It's amazing how just having the right tools for a job removes a lot of obstacles. Regarding hammers, all the rounding hammers I see online (whether self-made or sold at retail) are fullered (is that the right term?) behind the faces making them look kind of mushroom-y. Is that a functional part of the hammer or is it just cosmetic? If I took a regular 3lb - 4lb sledge hammer and just rounded the face with a grinder would I have a "proper" rounding hammer? I don't have anywhere near the tools or skills required to make my own hammer just yet.

Thanks Jeff. It will be nice when I can heat the steel past a dull-orange colour with a proper forge. Heating the iron with such an inefficient fuel and bad makeshift firepot is my biggest challenge right now. I was only able to get about 10 hits in before the steel cooled back down to red and then black because it was 30 degrees F outside and my anvil wouldn't stay warm. I have some J-shaped railroad anchors that I would warm up and lay on the anvil while my material was heating but that just made for more trips back and forth between the anvil and the fire so I was losing time at every step of the process, it also made me use more fuel because the fire wouldn't stay hot with all the constant disruption and big hunks of cold metal constantly coming and going. A gas forge (I'm doing this right in the city so coal is not reallt a viable option) and warm weather will give me a bit more of a fighting chance to get some work done with properly heated materials. The way I see it, if I can muddle through it with the setup I have and pick up some skills on the way, I'll be that much better when I have the proper tools. I've still never even seen what bright orange - yellow heat looks likr or how it behaves under a hammer except in videos. I used to be an athlete and I used to train by sprinting with a 6-foot parachute attached to my back. I look at this kind of the same way.

LOL no...I'm no Robert Redford but I'm a lot nicer to look at than that dude.