Mikey98118

This is the first time I've seen one of these burners, but I can tell you a few good things about it. In the first place, seeing the red/orange hot flame nozzle out in open air tells me that the fuel/air mixture is exposed to a generous ignition source (very good). Your combustion is mostly in the primary flame envelope; AKA combustion wave front (also very good). The orange streaks in the secondary flame are from a reaction between super-heated gases and that particular stainless steel alloy, which is undoubtedly #304, instead of the longer lasting #316 S.S. alloy; you needn't worry about them, but you will have to replace your flame nozzles much sooner than you would with #316. Now we come to the color of your primary flame, which has a slight tinge of green in it, instead of being pure light blue. There was a time when I would have said VERY NOT GOOD, but so long as you use your forge outdoors, or are careful to provide your forge area with a powered exhaust system for it is merely problematic; in other words both good and not so good. The good part is that it will provide a perfect heat source for welding, as the slightly reducing flame will protect your work from oxidation, while in the forge. The not so good part is that, if you ignore Frosty's recommendations about providing a powered exhaust system and CO alarm in your shop, you could end up with carbon monoxide poisoning, which is an outright bad thing. Mikey

You mentioned getting a new 20 pound tank. Many states used the compulsive replacement of old five gallon propane cylinders with upgraded models featuring overflow devices as an opportunity to also quietly include internal pressure limiting devices that are capable of running a barbecue, but hopelessly under-powered for running a typical burner. If you ended up with one of these tanks, it will never provide sufficient gas to power even the smallest NA burner. Should this be your problem, buying a much larger tank locally or buying a new five gallon tank in another state are your only solutions. Mikey

There are so many questions you haven't asked, which you really need to. I would suggest that you look up Larry Zoeller Forge as the most practical starting point for free information on building small forges. Either a Frosty "T" burner or Larry's modified side-arm burner would do fine in such a forge. Build the forge properly and forget about so called MAPP gas (which is actually propylene as MAPP has not been manufactured since 2008). If you must use propylene it is much cheaper purchased in regular industrial cylinders from a welding supplies store, but if you build your burner and forge correctly propylene gas and air would be much too hot to run in it, let alone propylene and oxygen. You can also input "Mikey Burner" to learn a lot more than you know on the subject of constructing burners. The only comprehensive source of information on the subject is still my book (Gas Burners for Forges, Furnaces, and Kilns); do you have to buy it? Nope; it has been pirated so much that there are about 120 sites advertising free PDF downloads on any given day. Of course, there is an old saying about laying down with dogs and getting up with fleas...have fun, and watch your six. Michael Porter There are so many questions you haven't asked, which you really need to. I would suggest that you look up Larry Zoeller Forge as the most practical starting point for free information on building small forges. Either a Frosty "T" burner or Larry's modified side-arm burner would do fine in such a forge. Build the forge properly and forget about so called MAPP gas (which is actually propylene as MAPP has not been manufactured since 2008). If you must use propylene it is much cheaper purchased in regular industrial cylinders from a welding supplies store, but if you build your burner and forge correctly propylene gas and air would be much too hot to run in it, let alone propylene and oxygen. You can also input "Mikey Burner" to learn a lot more than you know on the subject of constructing burners. The only comprehensive source of information on the subject is still my book (Gas Burners for Forges, Furnaces, and Kilns); do you have to buy it? Nope; it has been pirated so much that there are about 120 sites advertising free PDF downloads on any given day. Of course, there is an old saying about laying down with dogs and getting up with fleas...have fun, and watch your six. Michael Porter

Frosty, You wrote "Aren't you referring to a 3/16" FPT to 1/8" compression fitting?" No, I'm referring to a particular size threaded insert for wood. The very next burner in the book (the 3/4" burner) uses a lamp fitting; I gave them more than one part to work from. Nevertheless, a 1/8" schedule #80 pipe nipple is much more efficacious. But where I really had in mind for this discussion to go was forward into new burner designs. I'm afraid it is simply buried to deep in the list to get any play. Mikey

I agree with his views about the utility of a brick pile forge. Perhaps its greatest value is in providing a good way to heat metal, so you have more time to decide on what kind of permanent shape forge to construct. Porter

To timgunn1962 The gas pressures they are talking about have to do comparisons to other gas pressures out of the same size of orifice; so 12 PSI versus 25 PSI means less than half as much gas used to produce a desired result, assuming that the same size orifice is used in someone else's forge, and if the same sized burners are being used, it is also likely that the same size gas orifices are being used. Porter

Brian, I recommended two MIG tip sizes: For .030" welding wire and .035" wire. The reason is that this burner size "sits on the bubble" the smaller tip works better at lower pressures; the larger tip at higher pressures. I sand bagged a lot of my figures and recommendations. Actually, I tested out every burner in the book up to 60 PSI, and then listed their limits as 30. You need to remember that this was a brand new burner design and my legal exposure lasts as long as the book goes on being read. So, when guys wrote back then that I must be bragging, I laughed out loud, knowing the burners would actually do far more than I'd claimed. But, I did play fair; the book also recommends using a set of torch tip files (about $2 at your local welding supply store) to ream out the smaller tip size a couple of thousandths to get perfect performance out of this burner. Most people would rather buy two tips; after all, it's not like you're going to be changing them back and forth much. Here is another tip that didn't go into the book: On any of these sizes the builder can cut the amount of air openings down to three by simply widening the air openings and have room left over to widen (and therefore strengthen) the ribs between the openings. The other result of this change is a more powerful burner, so why didn't I mention that in the book? People hadn't built thousands of these burners back then. The extra air openings made the burner run a little smoother out in the open air, and I wanted all the extra safety I could get. Porter

Brian, Listen to Frosty's advice, but if you want to see that forge enteior go from yellow up to yellow-white use ITC 100, or a homemade equivalent in it. Porter

Brian, MIG tip sizes are listed for the welding wire they are meant to handle. An .030" MIG tip actually has an .035" orifice, and an .035" tip has an .040" orifice. I recommend buying both tips because neither is a perfect orifice diameter for this burner size; the smaller tip will put out a better flame in the lower gas feed pressures, and the larger tip is needed for best performance at higher gas pressures. Somewhere in the book I mention using torch tip cleaning file sets (about $2 at your local welding supply store), to ream the smaller tip out a couple thousandths if you want perfect gas accelerator performance. Most people just buy both tips. I mean, it isn't as though you're going to be running the burner up and down its range just for something to do, is it? Porter

Brian, Listen to Frosty's advice, but if you want to see that forge enteior go from yellow up to yellow-white use ITC 100, or a homemade equivalent in it. Porter

Brian, Listen to Frosty's advice, but if you want to see that forge enteior go from yellow up to yellow-white use ITC 100, or a homemade equivalent in it. Porter

"The Book"? Is that what they're calling it now? How flattering; and how wrong. That book is ten years old. We have all discovered plenty more since then. I would call it a nice knowledge base to familiarize yourself with, but certainly not the last word; not on equipment construction, and certainly not on burners.There is a brave new burner now. Vortex burners combine all the extra power of fan-blown burners, and all the compact flame precision of naturally aspirated burners; they are also less work to build than mikey burners...more complex, but a lot less sweat equity. Than, we have the furnace, itself: Gas tube forges are simply out of date. Even while I was writing that book oval shaped gas forges were commercially available; they are even more so now (check out Chili Forge). However, these older designs, with their rectangular enteriors are also outdated. You want a true oval enterior in your oval forge to get the most out of a Vortex burner. The Author [email protected]

I never heard of a valve with a diaphram. Regulators have diaphrams, and If I were you, I'd take the "valve" down to a local liquid propane dealership, and see what advice and/or replacement parts they can provide. Mikey

I spent thirteen years in ornamental ironwork, and another forty-two thinking about it afterward. I can tell you that experience is not enough by itself. One of the things you need to do is send for, and study, ornamental iron work supply catalogs. Than too, there was a set of five ornamental ironwork books once; they were called "the gold books" by guys in the trade. If you can still find a set, they would be quite helpful in answering stock size questions. Here are two hints to start with: (1) NEVER use solid stock on the frame or pickets of a gate more than three feet wide; (2) When in doubt ALWAYS choose the larger--not the smaller--stock you are considering. If, in sheer ignorance, customers hint that you are trying to save money on frame and picket stock by using square or rectangular tube, ask them how much its equivalent in solid stock would wiegh, and how they plan on keeping such a load from destroying whatever it is suspended from. BUT, outside of matters that take experience, like the weight of gates, just remember that whatever troubles your eye will also trouble the customer's; they may not have a clue about good design, but every last one of them can see what's wrong with what you're offering, whether they can put it into words or not! Final hint; when it comes to designs, go to a stained glass supply and look at their books. Buy a couple, and use them to teach yourself what's hot and whats not, in possible ornamental iron designs. This advice is free, but it's not cheap; it cost me a working lifetime to perfect; you might get more, but you won't get better. Michael Porter [email protected]

I am currently updating the second addition of Gas Burners for Forges, Furnaces, and Kilns, and have run across an old question on this forum about where to find a 3/16"inverted female nut to build the gas accelerator with. Having thought I'd solved this question eight years ago, along with the need to build a temporary accelerator, and the need to do any silver brazing at all, I was surprised to find people still asking such out of date questions. Apparently, the word hasn't spread. Schedule #80 4" pipe nipples aren't easy to find, locally; but, they can be directly tapped for 1/4-28 thread, and thus hold the 14T MIG tip. You can order such a pipe nipple from Zoeller Forge for $5 and shipping, if you can't find it locally (which you probably can't). The money they save in silver braze alloy and flux will more than cover the price difference and shipping charges above what a schedule #40 pipe nipple and 3/16" inverted female nut costs at your local hardware store. You can use the brass pipe nipple and 1/4" threaded reducer fitting from a brass inflator kit from Harbor Freight (item #68269; price $2.49) for you burner's accelerator tube; it will also take 1/4-28 thread without any special fitting (I would recommend soldering the threaded joint between brass nipple and 1/4" reducer, though). Any other questions? Mike Porter

I see no reason it wouldn't work pretty well, so long as the forge is mounted on a semi-lockable "elbow" arm (motion resistant only) that can be raised and lowered by attaching the arm to a vertical pipe within a lockable clamp for horizonal positioning. Of course it will only work in the horizontal position or facing vertical-up. Larry Zoller has some nice insights into building coffee-can forges on his web site, but for the kind of heavy duty use you're likely to put it through, you should check out Coffee-can furnaces on Castinghobby (go too the oldest posts and work you way forward), or look up Genes' files on HomeFoundry (both Yahoo news groups). Also, forget any advice you'll find in these places about using 1/4" or 3/8" burners to power them. Use the 1/2" burner design of your choice, instead. Why such advice? Becuase the way you want to use this "forge" is neither as a gas forge (parts heated internally) nor as a casting furnace (charge held within a crucible and heated internally). You are actually going to be making and using a sort of gigantic torch head, and using the exhaust blast out of it to do your heating. You want to employ high temperature castable refractory instead of refractory fiber because fiber won't last long the way you must use this device. Also heat loss through its walls isn't a major consideration, as you are deliberatly using a strong exit flame to do the work. Michael Porter

Yes, there are a lot of parallels, since I contributed burner designs to his site from 2000 to 2002. You will also find that Rex Price states openly on his site that his burners were designed with my help. Read the book more carefully and you'll abandon hole drilling as I did early on. The rotating choke was also abandoned, because it only works properly in the full open or full closed positions, interfering with smooth air intake in all other positions; this mainly happened because it turned the rounded ends on the Hybrid burners into points (very bad thing to do). So, the next question would be, why not try it on my high speed tube burners, which have squared and beveled ends? Answer: The length to width ratio of air intakes strongly affects a burner's performance. If you make their width variable through use of a rotating choke, the variance in burner performance will become a real aggravation (in high speed burners) to the operator. On the other hand, varying their length from the rear with a sliding choke keeps performance predictable. Rotating chokes can be found on some Bunsen burners, but this kind of burner isn't anywhere near as dynamic as the weakest burner design employed in gas forges today. Air from side intakes already spirals as it enters the mixing tube area, as does the air coming in through bell reducers on the ends of linear burners (Reil type). A burn barrel is something midway between a burner and the equipment the burner is supposed to heat. Ideas will not transfer from it to a burner that is a single heat source within forge or casting furnace equipment. Also, turbulance is good in certain areas of the burner, and very bad in others. You want to keep your turbulance confined to the mixing tube as much as possible. In both the air intake area and the flame nozzle, turbulance is a problem--not a blessing. I think what you really want to do is to experiment with the burner design to make it your own; bravo! Most of the people who read my book do. So, if I were advising a guy with a mill what to do in such case, I would say "try something in between my design and the Hybrid burners." Do not give up the rectangular bevelled air intakes, but instead, use the next size pipe and dimensions, with a little added length beyond the air intakes to insure a good fit, and bevell the inner face of the pipe you slide inside it for a mixing tube. Line up the bevells of the mixing tube with the forward bevelled ends of the air intakes on the larger tube before permanently affixing the two parts together. You should be able to use directions from the burner size you want to build to make the burner mixing tube and nozzle, along with directions from the next larger burner size to make the air intake portion, end cap, etc. I plan on trying this design myself and including it in my second burner book if it works out as well as expected. One other thing: I reduced the number of air intakes from six down to five larger intakes on my Generation Five 1" burner. The new slots are 3/8" wide by 2-1/4" long, with about 5/16" wide ribs between them. The new burners run just as well as the older models but have much stronger ribs. If you are building a 3/4" burner (mixing tube size in this case), try these dimensions. Another change I'd recommend is to use MK brand MIG tips, which have 12-24 thread. This allows you to use smaller diameter tube for your gas pipe, creating a better gas jet assembly. Also, I don't like the quality trends with the Tweeco MIG tips these days. Gentle hint: OnlineMetals.com has exhaustive dimension listings on their parts and reasonable pricing on cut parts and shipping, so there is no need to panic when you start swimming down at the deep end of the pool. Further instructions, like on soldering brass to stainless upon request :-) Porter

Running "high" gas pressure doesn't always mean using lots of fuel. If you feel that your burner isn't doing a good job with the gas pressure you're using, a smaller gas orifice diameter can allow you to provide a stronger gas stream from higher pressures (to draw in more air)with the same amount of total fuel use. I believe Corin covered that with his comments on drilling small gas jet holes, and increasing their size untill you find one that works best in your burner. Most of my larger burner designs (3/4" and up)just start running well at 8 PSI. Michael Porter