Mikey98118

But what it is doing is heating up that forge very fast. On the other hand, I have never seen a flame like that coming out of a Mikey burner in a forge.

I did it the exact same way; that's why I'm looking for a better way

Frosty, I don't see a problem with some guys using your garage to build their rods, while others just want to fix up the family car; one's old one's new, but the questions are the same

What we see here, over and over, are comments from happy Diamonback costumers, and unhappy Majestic costumers. I would consider that a strong clue...

J, Once someone has got as far along as you did, the burner problem usually turns out to be quite minor. Unfortunately, minor problems can look like a dig deal when they reach your burner's flame Now, you may think you have nothing much to tell the rest of us at present. But, actually you do know something of great interest. You have just finished making a series of micro holes is soft copper. Would you like to go into what that ended up like? Yes; those seem to wriggle around like snakes

Okay, you are stopped; that's a good beginning point. Read forges 101, because you need to get a fast view of the big picture, before you start playing with burners. The popcorn can would never have worked out; they became popular for casting furnaces, which were being lined with hard refractory; you need a little thicker wall than that to support the forge's burner port and legs. Pay close attention to the suggestions about building a forge from a two gallon non-refillable helium cylinder, or a non-refillable Freon cylinder. That his the forge that will make you happy. Just slow down a little bit, and we will walk you right through the whole process. And, no; you don't need much tooling or money to build a very fine forge; You just need to do a little reading, and listen when we answer your questions.

Seattle Pottery Supply is a short ferry ride away from Bremerton; I get all my refractory supplies there, including high alumina kiln shelf and Kaowool. Tacoma is just over the bridge in the other direction, and I would find it odd if you couldn't find a boiler supply there. Clay Art center is on the northern outskirts of Tacoma; I haven't been there for years, but they used to stock all manner of refractory products. I drive by there once a month, and they are still open for business.

I hope you have a 1/2" version of your "T" burners all worked out for the Garage, because I think they will be the easiest size to fit down holes left by cut off old burners, and should work best in some of the confined areas in multiple burner square forges. I am really looking forward to the new thread, although we may end up swimming with the gators be for you know it

If you want to mail me the burner, with return postage, I can quckly find out what the problem is. I don't normally make that offer, but your problem is interesting me. m.a.porter@comcast.net

Frosty, I have considered that, and they end up a little small to work perfectly as stepped nozzles; they would end up with about the same increase in diameter as a tapered nozzle, and that is probably better, because the amount of increased area in the nozzle needs to match up with the rest of the burner's dynamics; I believe your set up should match up fairly well with yours. If you also should put a little taper on the nozzles, they might work out a little better, but they also might not... I'm not being picky about this; I have marveled before at the soft, yet hot flames, your burners produce. I think that the balance on those burners are delicate. I also believe that their soft flames make them the best burner to run faced straight down into square forges, like the Diamondback forges. I would love to see a "T" burner replacing one of the original burners in a square forge. Its the one I would suggest as a replacement burner most often.

It isn't a perfect answer, but the best idea I've seen so far, is that some guys install hinges and a latch on the working end of a forge, so that larger material can be moved in and out, on occasion. The expected plummet in forge temperature turns out to be minor. And why would the heat loss be minor? Because the forge insulation, is itself a heat sink; not much of a heat sink, but more than needed to take care of rapidly recovering the loss from a door opening for thirty seconds or so.

There are several mitigating factors that you don't want to overlook, 'cuase they are all in your favor: The square of the distance rule is curtailed a whole lot in a forge; the better that forge is designed the greater that curtailment is. The main goal in a modern gas forge is to turn it into a radiant oven. You lean into that goal, by employing more insulation; not less, and by using a high quality heat reflecting finish coat over the insulation. You place a baffle wall outside of the the exhaust opening, and paint it with the heat reflective coating, so that radiant heat is bounced back into the forge, instead of leaving along with the exhaust gases. You employ a ceramic multi-port flame nozzle on your burner, to insure maximum flame heat in the shortest distance within the forge, followed by a rapid slowing of combustion gases toward the exhaust. You seal the burner opening, by stuffing ceramic blanket between the flame nozzle and the forge opening, to prevent secondary air from being induced into the forge by the flame. All these things should make your forge hot enough, even when burning natural gas. But, supposing that, on occasion you want more heat than your NG forge will give you? Then, on those rare occasions, you can use propane, propylene, or oxygen enrichment (no more than 10%) to get over the hump. We aren't big about calculations on this forum, because we have discovered that c-h-e-a-t-i-n-g beats good math every time

Thenm you are quite right; of course, the devil still remains in those details

Which BTW is why I find reducer fittings being used as flame nozzles more than a little hilarious. They cannot come close to being the optimal inside diameter, are always to short for the optimal length, and cannot have the amount of their overhang past the mixing tube's end varied, to get it right, either! The fact is that they do work, in that they can allow the burner to function outside of a forge or casting furnace; unfortunately, they work so poorly, that their supposed utility is illusory, once the burner is installed within the equipment. Thus, we find once again that, there ain't no free lunch!

Good enough is a personal decision. I can only help in pointing out the technical factors, once you're in the ball park; and you are, but that is still a reducing flame. To do you any good, I will have to change the subject. Harking back to Frosty's golden rule: "When tuning a burner, change only one thing at a time," I'm sure you gained valuable practice in changing the orifice diameters, but the gas jet, wan't what needed fixing. I think you have gone as far as you can go with a hand hammered tapered flame nozzle. You could go a little further by ordering a machine pressed stainless steel flame nozzle from Larry Zoeller Forge. How far? You would end up with a neutral flame. But if you really want the full potential you have already worked so hard for, Your burner needs a stepped nozzle. A stepped nozzle is a plain tube, with a spacer ring in one end, this greatly increases both air induction, and flame stability; both of which are needed to "make "the magic flame." How big? I like to use schedule #40 pipe parts, so, when starting with a 3/4" water pipe for the mixing tube, I use a schedule #40 1" pipe nipple to cut a short spacer ring from, and order a piece of 1-1/4" schedule #40 stainless steel pipe, about 2-1/2" long, from onlinemetals.com, for surprisingly little money. Or you can cut the parts and drill the threaded holes for set screws in mild steel pipe, and do the work all aver again when the first stepped nozzle rapidly oxidizes away. Do at least use stainless steel set screws, so that they don't freeze in place after a few thermal cycles in the forge. So, can you substitute tube parts for pipe parts in a stepped nozzle? Sure you can, BUT, you need to look up the equivalent schedule #40 pipe part dimensions in an online pipe chart, and see to it that the inside diameter of the flame nozzle stays within plus or minus .030" of the pipe's inside diameter, or burner performance can fall off drastically.

And you would be utterly wrong. Btu input has to do with POTENTIAL energy past through a given piece of equipment If one burner can only get the standard 2450 F flame out of propane, and another burner can get 3000 F from a much more compact flame, the amount of transferred energy into the equipment is going to be a whole lot different. And if a third kind of burner can put out a high heat milt-flame that slows way down in the first couple on inches out of the burner nozzle, it will transfer even more heat. So, yeah, the kind of burner matters a whole lot.

Small clam shell forges are even simpler to make, as round high alumina kilns shelves are cheaply acquired from any pottery supply store. a Pair of them can become the hot faces for the forge top, and forge bottom, with layers of insulation trapped between hot face and and sheet metal lid, pan, dpg dish, etc. Carbide encrusted hole saws from Harbor Freight Tools are a cheap and easy way to install a burner or exhaust opening in top or bottom shelf. Such small forges are thrifty to build and run, and are portable. A standard small naturally aspirated burner is all they need.

Forges 101 now has a discussion of clam shell forges.

Clam Shell Forges What is hard about making clam shell forges? Nothing, wants we get past the idea that they are somehow mysterious; they're not. In fact they are one of the easiest forge shape to make. Like every other forge, the first question is "how big?" And like every other forge the answer is "what for?" Whether you want to pound on sheet iron, or work on scrolls, area needed equals area to be worked. Unlike any other forge this area is two dimensional; not three. Height of the forge is variable, as brick is used around the periphery of the forge, so height can be varied at will. Also exhaust openings are provided by openings left in the brick wall. The forge top is provided by any convenient sheet metal form, from a wok to a garbage can lid. My clam shell's top was part of a barbecue. Into the lid is placed two or three 1" thick layers of ceramic fiber blanket. Each layer is rigidized with fumes silica, and flame hardened, before the next layer is installed. The slight dish shape, combined with the gluing effect of the rigidizer leaves the insulation quite able to maintain itself against gravity. There is no need to use a ring to hold the insulation in place. just use sheet metal screws all over the the lid's top, reaching down part way into the insulation, which is now glued together; it can now longer de-laminate. It's a good idea to finish the blanket with a finish coat layer. The forge base is basically nothing more than a table top, with insulation and a flame face (hot face) layer. Chapter 6 of Gas Burners for Forges, Furnaces, & Kilns (free downloads from the net), shows how to build a "forge cart." It is actually an insulated hot work cart, with a builtin burner. The clam shell forge top is simply included in it. You could can do as little as line the top of a steel cart with bricks for short projects, are build a dedicated cart. The forge top is held in position with a pipe within a pipe, that can be raised to a desired height, and held there with a tightening bolt. A seesaw top piece on the top of the inner pipe holds a wight at one end, and the forge lid at the other. Obviously, you can mount one or more burners in refractory burner blocks, positioned between the bricks, with an exhaust hole in the forge lid. Or, you can allow exhaust openings in the brick and mount a burner in either the lid, or the table top. Of course, table top mounting invites building in a ribbon burner, which can only be the very best choice for any large clam shell forge, and since it is built in to a cart, other tops, and brick piles can also be used on it that should read "fumed silica"; not fumes silica .

Yes, I know you stated that they are 1" burners. However call out sizes on pipes are much smaller than their physical sizes, and those look like 3/4" burners to me.

Frosty and I both think that there is a burr or partial obstruction in the gas jet of your rear burner; that is easily rectified. Bringing both burners up to snuff is a different matter. Your flames are reducing, and too long; even while still reducing they will shower your work with super heated oxygen, creating scale. Presuming that those are 3/4" size burners, a .023" MIG tip would normally be just a touch small, while an .030" tip would be just a touch large. BUT, you stated that they are only 1" long!!! The tips should have been 1-1/2" long. It would be quite a hassle for you place the side holes in your reducer fittings where they would need to go, to properly mount the longer MIG tips now. So, the smaller tip is the logical move at this point. BTW. if you should decide to move the cross pipes for longer tips, use a 2" to 3/4" reducer fitting next time. I take it back. I took another look at your burners, and your cross pipes are placed in the right area to mount the longer MIG tips, so that should be your first move. Also, I would still recommend the smaller tip, to induce more air, because your reducers aren't the best size to do so. Also, either chose Tweco tapered MIG tips, or spin the tips in a drill, and file them down to a blunted taper, similar to the Tweco tips.

There is only one way to find out.

One regulator into a main fuel hose or pipe; copper tubing from a fitting out of the hose or pipe; three needle valves for fine control of each burner's flame. A regulator does best to limit maximum pressure into a burner system, and fine control of an individual burner, or more than one burners, is best accomplished by flow control within that variable limit.

I would suggest you change out your gas jets for something with smaller orifices, so that you can raise the gas pressure. And check for a burr or inclusion in the jet on the rear burner while doing the switch. Could you tell me what brand that propane cylinder you used for a forge shell is?

I would expect them to be a natural pick for you, as they can magnify the advantages of fan-blown systems, while ending the one thing about them that is hard to live with; dragon's breath. I stay mostly mum on the subject in an effort to keep from ending up with too much on my plate; not from a lack of belief in them. That won't prevent me from pointing out their advantages. I expect them to become the number one choice of most smiths in coming years; yet, I also maintain that there is no such thing as a best burner or best forge for everyone