John B Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 BP0920 Quite a scrap pile! Would you happen to have a photo showing how the small flowers are attached to the scrolls, like in the picture below? Quick answer on that I am afraid is no, I'll try to remember to take some next time I have a rummage, but I don;t know when that will be. I will try to explain the way this was done in this specific item. The flower itself consists of two pieces, The fluted outer, and the domed inner. The whole is attached to what I would describe as a loop in the end of the scroll, similar to a rolled penny snub end but with a hollow centre or a bolt end scroll with no bolt, The domed inner is a textured rivet head, the stem of the rivet is passed through the eye in the scroll end, and a washer or rove is placed over the protruding rivet stem, and the item then rivetted on (in certain areas, these outers actually spin on the rivet) These old pieces are quite intriguing in how they were assembled to form the shapes you see, they are all straightforward and simple, we tend to look for more complicated methods than what were actually used, just basic simple blacksmithing, screws, nuts (of different shapes and proportions), studs, rivets and brazing. What is noticably missing in these examples are collars, probably capitalising on the latest technology of (relatively) easily available machine made taps and dies of a standard form, thus rendering collaring to join pieces not essential This particular one shown here is a great example of what I mean, If you or others are interested in its make up/construction, I can post pictures, so you can see how it is constructed, maybe even start a new thread for it. Anyway, I hope the explanation clarifies your enquiry Happy forging Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 john - your explanations are wonderful, i certainly would be interested in any details off of any of that scrap from before (or any other assemblage info of items of decorative interest) its so nice when somebody writes clearly wish i was as useful as you are. i like to think of that flower rotating i also think a whole thread on construction of specific pieces would be fabulous. we can share you - its good to share :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 bryan - i dont understand this hard 'shell' thing - heat treatment and hardening information always sounds like gobbledygook to me but i have heard this hard surface thing before and am confused - is a hard surface that thin really any good ? and its not hard just beneath that? :unsure: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 bryan - i dont understand this hard 'shell' thing - heat treatment and hardening information always sounds like gobbledygook to me but i have heard this hard surface thing before and am confused - is a hard surface that thin really any good ? and its not hard just beneath that? Normally case hardening is used for wear resistance on pieces, keeping a softer centre to resist shock loadings Think of it like icing on a cake, when the icing is really hard and you have to nigh on use a saw to cut through it, or Smarties, Hard shell on the outside softer on the inside Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 so you can hit that shell and its thick enough? what sort of tool would you use it on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K. Bryan Morgan Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 Beth, I've seen it done on swages made out of mild steel on the ABANA vids on youtube for the national curriculum. I don't know how to imbed a video never done that before but, that is the video I'm talking about. Well whaddya know. Just cut an paste the URL in. Yippy. \o/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 thats great bryan thanks the video was well mellow to watch ( i should go to sleep really its past my bedtime..) so what are they putting on it ? john - how did the show go? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 Show went pretty well, its on again tomorrow but I shan't be there, got to get the newsletter out and so will be trying to sort that tomorrow, got some pics of the static pieces though, and also some stuff from the Edenbridge and Oxted show from a couple of people who atttended. Have got to download and sort them yet though, will put them on on the Guild page in the Groups forum here if I think they may be of interest, Mick Maxen has his flowers on a log there, even more impressive than before, and well worth the trip to see them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K. Bryan Morgan Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 Kasenit, or a product like it. It gives a certain thickness of hardness for impact resistance. Case hardening has been around for a very long time. They used it on all sorts of things in the 1800's. They didn't use these products, they are more modern that that. They used things like horse hoof and leather in a steel box thrown on the forge. But the same concept. Adding carbon to the surface of the steel. Metalurgicaly speaking this has been around for a very long time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jura T Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 The whole is attached to what I would describe as a loop in the end of the scroll, similar to a rolled penny snub end but with a hollow centre or a bolt end scroll with no bolt, The domed inner is a textured rivet head, the stem of the rivet is passed through the eye in the scroll end, and a washer or rove is placed over the protruding rivet stem, and the item then rivetted on (in certain areas, these outers actually spin on the rivet) Thanks for the explanation. With hollow penny end snub do you mean that the end has been punched/drilled? The reason I'm asking these details is that that particular piece looks like a fun project to practice forge welding with. This particular one shown here is a great example of what I mean, If you or others are interested in its make up/construction, I can post pictures, so you can see how it is constructed, maybe even start a new thread for it. I'm definitely interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 Thanks for the explanation. With hollow penny end snub do you mean that the end has been punched/drilled? The reason I'm asking these details is that that particular piece looks like a fun project to practice forge welding with. A penny end snub should have a solid penny looking end, as opposed to a tight rolled ribbon scroll which can be rolled to give the same appearance as a penny end scroll which is the method used on much of the early ironwork using wrought iron. So yes, just punch a hole in the solid end to pass the rivet through Alternatively if it is being hidden behind the ornamentation, just form a hole in the end of the bar/scroll and put a 90 degree twist towards the end and then rivet the piece on I'll see if I can get more specific pictures for you.details Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 Here we go Minotaur, an all other interested parties this should clarify what is involved in the ornamentation discussed. First the entire piece prior to being mounted to another part and the end view of the ornament mounting The actual disc and centre to be mounted, (the centre is a textured dome head rivet) All the pieces involved, disc, domed head rivet with textured head, domed rove for the rivet and the end of the scroll assembly it fits to. If you have any further questions or queries please ask. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 thanks john! thats a great piece of ornament or whatever youd call it - really like the flower - its like a brioche bread pan - i like that its made from one piece. how would be the best way to make such a lovely fat large domed rivet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake pogrebinsky Posted September 4, 2011 Author Share Posted September 4, 2011 Excellent and rare info and photos,thank you,John,this is an absolute priviledge to be able to ask you these specific questions(or eavesdrop on someone else doing it,thank you,Minotaur,and Beth,for asking this:)). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old N Rusty Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 It's cracking good, Grommet ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jura T Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 Thank you very much John! Great to see how see how it had been done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 thanks john! thats a great piece of ornament or whatever youd call it - really like the flower - its like a brioche bread pan - i like that its made from one piece. how would be the best way to make such a lovely fat large domed rivet? However which way you favour, I would probably start with a diameter bar approximately 1/2 plus on the finished diameter required, form a tenon of the required diameter on the end, as long as required to pass through the components and attachment parts plus a rivetting allowance to secure the rove with. Finis with a swage to produce an accurate shank. Cut the piece off of the end of the bar leaving enough material to make the head dome you require, you may have to guesstimate this for the first one, note that size so you adjust for later ones if necessary, Make yourself a rivet snap tool of the desired profile, Then use a rivet header/bolster to produce the domed head, ( you can also use this tool to produce the domed roves.) Make sure the bolster has a slight chamfer on the top of the hole, a sharp corner under the rivet head is generally regarded as undesirable and can lead to failures (probably not on this size, but it is good working practice. I would heat the bar to do this, just like making nails except you are die forming the head with the snap. You then have the texturing to think of, In this situation my plan would be to rivet the assembly together first, (don't forget to chamfer the centre hole in the rove to allow for rivetting) Then using a domed bolster under the roved head (you could use the snap you had for forming the rove and domed rivet head) as an anvil, apply the texturing you desire, this will also planish the roved side's finish and increase the strength of the rivetting If you pre form the texturing before rivetting on the rove you run the risk of deforming the texture you have applied to the rivet head. That should the produce what you require. Have fun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K. Bryan Morgan Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 Thanks for showing this and the explination John. Thats really good information to have. I'm not there yet but I will be making some things for the house soon. A dog gate and a wood rack are on the list of things to do. But it may be a while and I'm still working on some basic skills. Like forge welding. I've gotten a couple to stick. But more have not been successful. Had a friend come over and we tried to do a basic forge weld and it just was unsuccessful. I know those scroll elements were welded. I don't want to resort to stick welding mainly because, I don't have one. Anyway its great to see the process. Thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 Those samples you see there were made for a Cathedral towards the end of the 18th century so were probably a good quality wrought iron to start with, much easier to forge weld than lower grades of WI or steel, Have patience with your forge welding, you will get there, it can take time if you don't have a mentor handy to talk you through it and watch you as you do it to give you advice as you need it. Heck even use flux if it helps you. You just need to get it to the right/same temperature in all the pieces you are trying to join, then lightly tap to start, and then more solid blows from the initial fusing point outwards Good luck and keep us posted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 time is def what it takes for sure - im still working on basic skills too bryan on many levels! ive only done a couple of forge welds that have worked - its finding the time to focus properly- there always seems to be some other job or task yelling for attention ! THANKS for the details of the rivet john, i really like the look of that high dome - ive never made any rivets, and i dont have the tools your talking about but thats given me something to think about, i need to get my head round doing things properly - maybe this is the sort of thing you could show me on the toolmaking in october?(maybe not) im off on the school run now which means yep holidays are finished and my time is my own again!!!!(sort of) i better produce something then hadnt i after all that moaning....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 No problem Beth, just ask, Are you intending to come on the course as I haven't got a booking from you that I can find and there are only a couple of places left at the moment, so let me know if you are coming please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 thanks very much john - its sometimes hard to keep asking basic stuff! people start yawning! no i havent booked that course but i think i will- can i book on here or is that really lazy and stupid? did i still have credit with you from the one i missed? seems so long ago .... its a good time of year for me to get away is october.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 Consider yourself booked on Beth, credit still good. Somebody has to ask about basic stuff, it's usually me. And others are always grateful you asked because they were too afraid to ask for fear of looking clueless. I was born that way so it doesn't bother me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 bless your heart john bellamy ace! have a bit of constructive learning to look forward too - will be lovely - will have plenty of Basics to ask you john will we have you or eddie? :ph34r: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 john didnt you show me something case hardened before - its just come back to me (oops) but im sure you dipped it into something weirdly normal like salt or something, or sand?? am i dreaming? rusty did you just quote wallace and grommit? pure class!! didnt know you lot got it.... glad you do.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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