jay_cat Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 I'm making a cross for my wall and I could use some advice on the best way to attach the to pieces together. Thank you in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 Best way is to melt solid gold into the joint and stud it with diamonds!Now a good , simple, cheap way would be to use 3 rivets and head them like hand forged nails. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
01tundra Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 Rivets, unless you'd rather weld it. To weld it, drill a small hole (maybe 1/4" or so) through the back piece and plug weld from behind so that it becomes a blind weld. But if you're not planning on putting any finish on it, the heat signature from the weld will end up showing through on the front piece. I think rivets would look good personally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petere76 Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 Try an offset lap joint and rivet the center. Heat the cross piece and set it over the upright. Use a set hammer to make it straight. Works good because the cross piece is locked in place and the piece lies flat. Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
01tundra Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 Or possibly use small (maybe 1/8") round stock and wrap the two together at the intersection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 You can also forge braze it. Sand the joint shiny, sprinkle a LITTLE borax flux, laundry borax or commercial flux all work fine. Scatter a few BITS of brass on the joint, brass brush snippings are perfect. Place it in the forge or use a torch to heat it, put a bit of brass on top of the joint as a gauge so you know when it's reached brazing temperature and let it cool. If you don't use too much brass in the joint it won't bleed out and be visible, if it does bleed just file and sand it clean, same for the bit used to gauge the temp on the surface of the cross, it will clean off easily. Giving my druthers I'd rivet it if a two piece cross was what the customer wanted, otherwise I really like the Fredric's cross even though they're more work. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
01tundra Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 You can also forge braze it. Sand the joint shiny, sprinkle a LITTLE borax flux, laundry borax or commercial flux all work fine. Scatter a few BITS of brass on the joint, brass brush snippings are perfect. Place it in the forge or use a torch to heat it, put a bit of brass on top of the joint as a gauge so you know when it's reached brazing temperature and let it cool. If you don't use too much brass in the joint it won't bleed out and be visible, if it does bleed just file and sand it clean, same for the bit used to gauge the temp on the surface of the cross, it will clean off easily. Giving my druthers I'd rivet it if a two piece cross was what the customer wanted, otherwise I really like the Fredric's cross even though they're more work. Frosty The Lucky. Interesting, I'm going to have to give forge brazing a try. I've tried several times to braze steel to steel with various brazing rods and fluxes with absolutely no luck at all. Maybe forge brazing will work out better for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay_cat Posted November 18, 2014 Author Share Posted November 18, 2014 Thank you for all the options. Petere76, I attempted a lap joint on another cross and failed. It was really sloppy. I am still very much a novice. I have a nice welder, so I might weld from behind or use 3 rivets. The 3rivets could also stand for the trinity. My wife is the client, so either option will work. Up until now I have been using bees wax for my finish. Im not sure how it will look on a larger piece. What would be the best option? I don't like paint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Coke Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 Greetings Cat, Setting down a step is easy... Use an old monkey wrench... Adjust the gap io the width of your metal plus twice the thickness ... Take a heat on the one you want set down and drive the other into it flush with the top.. Give it a try, it always works for me. Forge on and make beautiful things Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokin' Coke Forge Posted November 19, 2014 Share Posted November 19, 2014 If you decide to plug weld from behind, you can remove the heat signature by using a torch, or reheating the entire piece in the forge to bright red/orange. After it cools to a black heat, you can apply wax or oil for an even black finish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
01tundra Posted November 19, 2014 Share Posted November 19, 2014 If you decide to plug weld from behind, you can remove the heat signature by using a torch, or reheating the entire piece in the forge to bright red/orange. After it cools to a black heat, you can apply wax or oil for an even black finish. Yes, I should have mentioned this. Whenever I decide to weld anything like this, I use my torch afterwards to even out the colors. I still think small wrapped round stock or even copper wire to connect the two would look good, I may have to try this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 19, 2014 Share Posted November 19, 2014 After you wrap it take a small very sharp chisel and raise some thorns on the wrapping rod... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petere76 Posted November 19, 2014 Share Posted November 19, 2014 Jay, An easy way to pre bend the joint is a swage tool. File or forge the cross intersection, width of the upright plus the offset. To start double the stock thickness and add that to the the width. Now you have block across which you can sink the stock to the correct offset. Round the edges, so there are no shunts. When you make tooling, you get a reliable outcome each time. The cross style intersection is a popular technique for grills and other applications. As you grow into this trade your tooling becomes an investment that saves you time and gives you a consistent product. In manufacturing they call this repeatability. In regard finish. The natural mix is linseed oil (boiled), bees wax and turpentine. Apply to iron when it's hot but not showing color. Buff to a matt finish. The quick and dirty is a burned oil finish. Dip hot iron into your oil mix (we use hydraulic fluid), wipe to get a consistent look. Note, this smokes and it's not healthy to breath, do it outside and wear a suitable respirator. Good luck, Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay_cat Posted November 20, 2014 Author Share Posted November 20, 2014 Petere76, I need to make me some of that mix. I'm still puzzled on exactly how to finish this. For such a simple piece, I am having a difficult time deciding. I could always make 3 or 4 and attach them each differently and sell or gift the left overs. I am trying to keep things simple as I learn. I will update with a pic once I am done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yves Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 If you are to forge a few, there are three different models forged in the following video, from 03:30 to 05:31. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay_cat Posted November 20, 2014 Author Share Posted November 20, 2014 Great video. Thank you. I think I want to try attach the two pieces using the method at 10:20. If not this cross maybe another one. it would look really nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petere76 Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 Jay, Sorry for the late response, I had a job in the shop to get out for shipping. The mix I use is linseed oil (boiled) .40% bees wax .40% and turpentine .20%. Heat it up gently and let it all go into solution. It will set up as a paste and store well covered in a coffee can or other container. Apply on warm metal , let dry, repeat and buff out with a rag. Keep going till you get the look you want. In regard the swage blocks to establish those offsets. I included a few pics so you can see several I use for grills. Ours are just welded but note the height differential so as to accommodate different stock thicknesses. Also the ones depicted are for the power hammer but you can weld up a hardy adapter to work on your anvil. Note the radius corners as to not mar the work. One more note. Blacksmithing as a trade was almost finished when I was in college (70s). I learned almost as much from books as I have from individuals. Build your own library of books from the masters. I was given Francis Whitakers book "The Blacksmiths Craft" by one of his students who has since become a very talented blacksmith in Maine. Its an excellent reference and a greater starter for your library. Mark Aspery's the Skills of a Blacksmith I, II, III are excellent and well worth the investment. The old Anvils Ring periodicals are a good source of information as are the news lettered from the various ABANA affiliates. Photos attached. Forge on my friend and all the best, Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay_cat Posted November 20, 2014 Author Share Posted November 20, 2014 thanks for the info and picture. Not sure why I didn't think of that. Very simple. I tend to over complicate possible solutions so the pic saved me from myself. I need to buy some books. I've primarily used you tube as my teacher along with the tips and tricks on here. One major mistake I keep making as a beginner is not planning out the steps of what I am making. I just start hammering. with only the finish line in mind and no map of the journey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 The problem with youtube is that you may not be able to tell if the video done by a renowned master of the art or a clueless twit---save that the clueless twit's video often has better production values as they spend more time with the camera/computer than with the hammer and anvil...Books have a bit more filtering as the cost to make them tends to ensure that they are done by someone who has some chops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petere76 Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 Thomas, Good chuckle when you said " renowned master or clueless twit", I have always thought the class twits were in government, never thought they pounded iron. Thanks for the laugh. Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay_cat Posted November 23, 2014 Author Share Posted November 23, 2014 It's finish. Not perfect but I learned a lot making it. I messed up at the very end and welded the loop to hang it by on the side I intended to use as the front. Oh well. I will pay more attention next time. Making this cross I had a few firsts. This was my first time using a chisel to cut steel while hot and this was my first time riveting anything together. Overall a fairly simple project for a beginner. The hardest part was welding a small loop on the back at a angle to hang the cross. Thanks again for the assistance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 Looks darned good Jaycat. We're blacksmiths we don't do perfect. About putting the hanging loop on the wrong side I doubt anybody here who's not a beginner has done the very same thing, I'm known for turning finial scrolls the wrong way. I just started making everything backwards and they turn out. <wink> Hanging a cross like that works nicely if you turn the center point on the top finial backwards into a hook. Just draw the tip out a little extra and roll it back. Viola! Hanging hook. Don't sweat the little things the recipient will be VERY happy and many years from now s/he'll show it off saying, "THIS is an early Jaycat! NO you can't touch it, it's a classic piece of art!" Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 Looks good, I think one is on my Christmas list, might 1/2 offset the lap and use a square rivet. Thank you for the inspiration Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay_cat Posted November 24, 2014 Author Share Posted November 24, 2014 I have to thank Technicusjoe for posting his hanging basket video. I took what he did to the bracket and applied it to the ends of my cross. So thanks again Joe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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