I just built a pair of  1/2" T-Burners from Frosty's plans.  3/4 x 1/2 Tees, 4" x 1/2" pipe, 3/4 reducing coupling as a flare, 0.023 Mig Tips.  Initial test of each burner outside the forge was good.

Once installed in the forge, the flame is not staying attached.  One burner pulses, the other doesn't attach at all.   If I blow into the forge, it attaches.  I tied to upload a video, not sure if it will work.

My best guess is a mixture problem?  Too much air or not enough?  The Mig tip is approximately 1/2 way into the Tee, as shown.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks

Trim the jet (mig tip) 1/16" and test it. Might have to do it a couple times to get the FA ratio right. What psi are you running?

Frosty The Lucky. 

Thanks, I'll go do that now.

I've tested at 5-15.  No change in the behavior.  

That did the tick.  I should have just followed your instructions to begin with.

So just keep trimming it down until I get a defined cone?

Thanks

Forget about the cone, I've learned a lot since then and there are better flames. Ideally a pale opaque blue flame stopping short of whatever surface the flame impinges on is just right. Mike Porter's "Burners 101" section explains it much better than I do. Reading along while Mike and I discussed the subject explains the hows and whys of burners in forges. 

So how HOT did your forge get and how long to get there?

There is another top shelf burner guru on the forum, "Frankenburner" He's WAY better than I am, he knows and understands the math, fluidics, etc. and his burners are beautiful induced vortex engines of HEAT.

Frosty The Lucky.

It takes a variety of burners to make a dog race. If somebody wins the race, things suddenly get boring! Besides, no one burner design is best for every purpose.

Shall we hash this out again Mike? 

Truth is the T burner is exactly what I had in mind when I developed it. An effective naturally aspirated propane burner that requires the bare minimum shop equipment, tools and experience to build.

I check in almost every day. If you have questions give a shout I'll get back.

Frosty The Lucky.

9 hours ago, Frosty said:

Shall we hash this out again Mike? 

It is only old news to us. It's the latest thing to newbies

I would rather rehash the burner's other end--its nozzle--especially various multi-flame nozzles. I suspect that this is where coming burner improvements will happen, for the next few years.

I know, it's why I refer people to the Forges and Burners 101 sections but you can lead a horse to water. . . Just joking the OP of this thread built a T burner from the old unimproved directions in the burner section and just needed tuning tips. 

I doubt I'll ever get a lathe set up to spin tapered mixing tubes but a simple step "flare" made quite a bit of difference on the Ts in my forges. Even NARB.

So what's new in your imagination?

Frosty The Lucky.

What is new in my imagination is totally off topic, having lots to do with better seeing of torch and burner work; not in producing burners and the forges they heat

I have also been interested in new methods of making multi-flame flame retention nozzles, using drilled stainless steel plates in flame retention nozzles. Two different builders on IFI have built multi-flame burner nozzles, employing stainless steel drain filters; both of them succeeded handily. Drilled stainless steel plates should be the next step, as those thin drain filters cannot last long. So, this idea has been circulating in my murky depths for a couple of years. This leads to the next question, which is the best method of holding such a plate in, or on, a torch nozzle. I'm leaning toward on, not in. On what then? On pipe reducer fittings, which provide the extra internal area to create a plenum chamber, and also a handy lip to drill and thread for face screws.

Repurposing the inventions of better men, for my low schemes doth make me grin, forsooth

Yeah, screw on holder like half a coupler with a small internal groove machined on the outlet end. The perforated, drilled punched, whatever Inconel or maybe Monel, (jet engine stainless steel like metal) diffuser. It will have a slight convex face you simply press into the holder and it springs out into the groove and stays put.

If you wanted to make it external to the mixing tube crimp the edges into an open bead and screw it onto the pipe threads.

Hmmm?

Were I spinning burners I'd crimp the output end over the Monel diffuser and put it together. Now I'm going to have to look up what jet/rocket engine metal I'm thinking of. Actually that metal is from the 1960s and probably so obsolete it's only found in spacecraft leaving the solar system. OR on the Washington State capitol dome. IF it's still there.

Frosty The Lucky.

Have we gotten switched around? I'm saying "keep it simple," and your saying "do it slick." Next thing we know, you'll be making hilarious typos, and I'll have to think up clever jokes about them; its just all backwards, to the way things are meant to be...

What, I was thinking of this before we met, started talking, whatever. I grew up in a metal spinning, machine shop and had planned on spinning prototypes from exhaust manifold stainless with a trumpet bell intake a 1:12 full length taper and diffuser. I'd actually started cutting "split" dies to remove them from the finished burner body. The snap in diffuser was one possibility as was a snap ring retainer. Working on the choke plate and jet mount was on the drawing board. So yeah, I'm bringing old thoughts back into view.

THEN a visiting iron caster and I were on a sight seeing drive down Turnagain arm and we talked burners. This was in the old Artmetal list days, Theforge list is still up if very low traffic. I got to talking about jet ejectors instead of linear burners because the much higher induction rate of a jet ejector makes them downright easy to tune.

The idea of the T burner appeared in a service station bathroom at the Portage Road x Seward Highway intersection. Some months later Robert sent me an email with attached photo of what he thought we were talking about producing a beautifully intense  flame. A "Sidearm" burner. 

I stopped myself before sending a reply saying NO, that's not right it won't work!! I'm REALLY glad I took another look and didn't sent it. 

My first try was with a cross but couldn't get the mig tip deep enough to induce properly and used a T next. I had no intention of making such a crude burner but dang it worked so well. 

Serendipity happens, eh?

Frosty The Lucky.

40 minutes ago, Frosty said:

Serendipity happens, eh?

Totally. My first burner designs were all linear burners. I spent six months trying to suppress the idea of high speed tube burners, before circumstance and curiosity won out, and Mikey burners happened. A quarter century down the road, I have lightened up about having my druthers, on account of that  serendipity thing.

Gentlemen, do you have any suggestions as to how many angels can dance on the head of a .023 mig tip to provide an optimal flame cone, and at the optimal number, does the tilt of their haloes affect aspiration? I was thinking of machining ophanim as a way reducing the intake (being naturally wheel shaped) but I find all the blinking distracting, plus I'm not sure that it counts as "natural" aspiration anymore so much as metaphysical.

*pokes bear and runs away!*

I'd suggest that would be a matter of supernatural aspirations, but we're not allowed to discuss religion here.

Keep it simple? How about cheap? Ever price Inconel? We run it at the shop i work and 1 bar 3' long 1/2" round is like $800. Needless to say you do not want to run bad parts and every single chip is kept separate from everything else. 

From what i understand about Inconel is that it is workable like a stainless steel but when it gets hot acts like glass. We make some kind of exhaust valve for F-16s. We alos make a part for some kind of sensor that goes in airplanes out of it. 

 

I gets plenty hot, this is intended to be a heat treat forge, which is why I downsized to 1/2" burners.  The original 3/4" couldn't go low enough.  It started life as a Devil's Forge 2 burner oval years ago.  I'm mostly concerned about an even heat between the burners in the desired temperature range.  There's likely a better way to do this.  Can you run two burners off 1 inlet?

Here's the latest image.  The near (problem) burner is sort of aqua in color, the other is a nice blue.  The MiG tip on the problem burner is cut about as far it can be, the other protrudes a little under half way.  I have no idea why they are so different, I've swapped or replaced every single component.  They were built on a lathe, so they are as precise and similar as I'll ever get them.  I think my only remaining option would be to bore out the threads on the Tee on that burner.

Any other ideas?

Thanks

If by running both off One inlet you mean one gas line. . . Not with an even flame. With a needle valve between the regulator and EACH burner for fine flow control AND the burners are close enough to "identical" then yes. Both my too large 4 burner shop forge and 2 T powered ribbon burner NARB are all running off the same regulator but each T has it's own needle valve.

I used to make T burners in my lathe and can tell you from experience that even running a boring bar full length of the burner tubes to to make them consistent ID and smooth didn't make any two burners perform the same. Not closely enough to run with one supply line. 

The factor you've missed for producing an even temperature in the forge (furnace) chamber is orientation of the burners. Aimed straight at the floor like yours is a pretty solid guarantee an uneven chamber temperature.

How do you feel about taking a hole saw to the forge shell and moving the burner ports? If the burners are oriented horizontally so the flames impinge ALONG the roof of the chamber and circulate around the chamber like a horizontal tornado the flame remains in contact with the forge liner for the maximum time conducting energy into the liner where it is re-radiated as IR back into the chamber to do work for you.

If you can't change to horizontal burner ports then angle them as far as possible to induce a strong "Swirl" in the chamber. Having the flames impinge directly on the work is NOT the best way to get even heating. 

Did you deburr the jets (mig tips) after shortening them? An internal burr, even a tiny one in the jet will change the shape of the jet of propane and alter how air flows INSIDE the mixing tube resulting in an undefined flame. EVEN if it's HOT. I deburred and sized burner jets with torch tip files. 

Don't but tip files at a big box hardware department go to a proper welding supply so they are accurately sized and a replacement will be reasonably consistent. If you were to take feeler gages to mig contact tips you'd discover they are NOT the ID noted on the package or side of the tip. 0.023" is the diameter of the welding wire that will pass through it freely, NOT the ID of the tip it self. They are ALWAYS larger by a few(?) thousandths.  When I started using tip files on my jets I was shocked to discover a 0.035" mig contact tip was at LEAST 0.040" often up to 0.044" ID. From then on I took my tip files with me and selected contact tips from the 0.030" tips and filed them to 0.035" ID. Unfortunately I'd developed the T burner with off the shelf 0.035 contact tips so actually making them that ID meant my burners were too lean and way too fast. So I went back and just evened them all up. 

Also your picture shows a dangerous flaw your Devil Forge. It is uncoated ceramic fiber which when vitrified breaks off little SHARP ceramic fibers to float around your breathable air and lodge in your lungs. Enough exposure CAN result in less treatable a form Silicosis.

The poop Devil Forge or most all forge makers include or sells you as "Rigidizer" doesn't cut it. Even if it stiffens up the ceramic blanket it doesn't prevent vitrified fibers from breaking loose to be blown out into YOUR air.

The ONLY safe way to keep your air safe is to work outdoors and wear GOOD full face, cartridge type respirator mask. OR, encapsulate the ceramic blanket in a high temperature water setting HARD refractory. IIRC and I'm not going to look through Forges-101 so I can link you directly, nor search the web. I'm hoping one of the gang has a link handy, I don't. OR you start browsing Forges 101 there are thousands of discussions with links. Browse the thread titles, don't try reading the whole mess!

I'm also not up on new products, I haven't lit a forge in a few years and am thinking of selling it all off. I hang out here to help folks breaking into the craft when I can. 

Frosty The Lucky.

 

Thanks for all the things to think about. 

I did deburr the mig tips, but I'm sure my files are cheap junk from Amazon. 

It may not show, but there's 3 or more coats of Satanite in there, with a Kast-O-lite floor. I touch it up pretty frequently.

If I need to reorient the burners, I'll probably start from scratch, I have a couple of propane tanks sitting around.

I am running both burners off a common line, so I can fix that. 

Thanks for all the help. 

Just

You're welcome, it's my pleasure.

When you use tip files don't overdo it or they'll file the orifice an odd shape, in and out twice, max.

Sounds like you have the blanket well covered, Kastolite is the refractory I couldn't think of, it must've been hiding out in one of the wrinkles on my brain.

Try tipping the burners through the ports now and see how it works. 

I run the propane to a 3/8" iron pipe manifold and from there to copper tubing to each burner. At the manifold I have a 1/4 turn cut off valve and between that valve and the copper would be where I put a needle valve. 

I have tuning the burner the way I do it down well enough I haven't needed needle valves, they all run close enough to the same it's not necessary.

Remember change ONLY ONE THING at a time and test or you'll never know what change did what. Sometimes they cancel out even. 

Mike's step nozzle works a treat. I stopped using anything but a thread protector on my burners in place of a nozzle flare. While they're often called "Flame holders" and they do, that's not what or why I use them. I use a flare to increase induction of combustion air, with more air I can increase propane. The larger the gas jet the slower the necessary propane velocity which puts more air fuel mix per second in the forge and being as it's moving more slowly it stays IN the forge longer.

Okay, I'm starting to ramble now. Give a shout if you have any questions, if I don't know the answer I'll make something up that Sounds plausible.

Frosty The Lucky.

Some final rambling may do him further good, Frosty.

  The first thing both old and new photos seem to be showing, is complete combustion. The color limits of of photos being what they are, we would need a side view of the exhaust gases before I would count on that. But, if combustion isn't complete it is close enough to it.

  The second thing is; that flame shape is probably do to insufficient control of the flame, from inadequate or missing flame retention nozzles. I believe this lack is permitting the flame to touch the ragged edges of the forge's burner ports. If his flames turn out to be slightly reducing, then this all amount to a storm in a tea cup.

  Either way, his next move should not be further tinkering with the burners, but starting to control what goes on in his forge, with movable exterior baffle walls. I suggest hard firebrick for them. The rear bricks should be right up against the exhaust opening. The forward brick wall should start out at 1" away from the opening, with the bricks being moved apart only enough to allow his parts through. How wide the gap between forward brick wall and forge ends up, will depend on how hard he is running his burners.

  If he wants to use the forge for heat treating, he must be able to fine tune its internal atmosphere--not just the burners; they are only half of the equation.

Mikey, Firebricks are as you say, something you told me 5 or 6 years ago when I first bought the forge. 

You don't remember?

18 hours ago, Judehey said:

Mikey, Firebricks are as you say, something you told me 5 or 6 years ago when I first bought the forge. 

You don't remember?

I just might remember, if it had been five or six days ago

I don't know if this is what Mike said but I advise folk to lose the heavy hard firebrick floor and replace it with a K-26? (Remember the name of the company Mike?) And kiln wash the interior with a powdered zirconia wash. Heck, kiln was everything in contact with the flame.

Another Mike thing clued us all into was the heat baffle for the openings, as described above.

How zirconia powder works. It's a VERY poor conductor of heat and has a very high melting temperature. Energy from the flame conducts into the zirconia but doesn't radiate out easily so the energy builds up. While thermal energy doesn't radiate easily from zirconia it has to and the only direction open to radiated IR is the interior of the forge. 

While the forge interior doesn't reach a higher absolute temperature it radiates heat like it does.

Also and a valuable feature is high zirconia kiln washes are chemically very inert so molten borax has no effect on it. NO more dissolved firebrick so your forge liner lives much longer. How mechanically tough the kiln wash is depends on what the binder cementing it all together. Unfortunately I can't recall the binder I liked the best, other than it isn't a silicate based cement.

Frosty The Lucky.